RE: Do atheists even need an objective moral system?
December 13, 2012 at 12:22 pm
(This post was last modified: December 13, 2012 at 12:31 pm by genkaus.)
(December 13, 2012 at 12:09 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: ...and this is another reason why morality can never be considered "objective".
No, its not. Not if the values chosen are objective themselves.
(December 13, 2012 at 12:09 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Not only must we exercise what we call "moral judgment" to determine what is good or bad (our very language underscores some acknowledgement that there is subjective evaluation involved in the process), but we do so based on our values of such things as life over death and joy over suffering.
And you assume that here simply cannot be an objective reason to value life over death or joy over suffering?
(December 13, 2012 at 12:09 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Invoking a deity does nothing to make morality objective because, by definition, you have a being, however wise, knowledgeable or powerful, who is exercising judgment on moral issues. All they've done by saying "GodWillsIt" is move the question back a step.
Invalid argument. A subjective entity is always required for making any kind of judgment - whether moral, scientific or mathematical. What determines the objectivity is whether the basis of the judgment is reality and facts or the judge's personal will.
(December 13, 2012 at 12:09 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: My other point is to say that just because we say "morality is subjective" this is not to say "anything goes" because some subjective evaluations are stronger (better supported by reason and objective facts) than others.
If evaluations are supported by reason and based on objective facts then they are no longer subjective.
(December 13, 2012 at 12:11 pm)pocaracas Wrote:genkaus Wrote:Morality: Code of conduct based on the knowledge of good and bad.(December 13, 2012 at 12:01 pm)genkaus Wrote: And how do you intend to judge good and bad without referring to morality?
yeah... I sense a circular reasoning in here... and I don't like it.
And then the rest of what you posted here... I tend to agree with you, however there's something nagging my head, but I can't put my finger on what it is...
Which is why I wanted you to read the whole argument. Basically, I took the most comprehensive dictionary definition of morality available while writing the article. And I soon realized that dictionaries often lead to circularity (What is morality? The difference between good and bad. What is good and bad? What corresponds to a moral code and what doesn't).
The issue is resolved when you see morality as a code of conduct or a guide on how to act. Consequently, good and bad are judgments or evaluations of actions based on the code. And thus, another way of describing morality is knowledge of good and bad.