(December 31, 2012 at 12:02 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: To answer a few people above who ask about the debate about words let me quote wiki "Depending on the religion, faith is belief in a god or gods or in the doctrines or teachings of the religion. Informal usage of faith can be quite broad, including trust or belief without proof,[1] and "faith" is often used as a substitute for "hope", "trust" or "belief"." I am using the later " belief without proof " for Faith
Good. Atleast we are starting at the same page.
(December 31, 2012 at 12:02 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: and would contend that both Athiests and Theists if they are honest with themselves will accept that when pushed back to the metaphorical which came first the egg or the chicken will accept that we have no proof beyond the reality we can experience.
Now you are just being ridiculous. There can be no proof beyond reality, but as far as our experience goes, we can and do have proof for things that are beyond our capacity to experience.
(December 31, 2012 at 12:02 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: We both have to accept a contradiction to logic, that being either something always existed or was created from nothing (and i mean nothing as in no fields no energy, real nothing)
This old tripe again! I've never met an atheist who claims that "something was created from nothing". This strawman has never worked before.
(December 31, 2012 at 12:02 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: We theist say God is that something that created the Cosmos and that you can search the Cosmos forever for God but you wont find him there as although we are part of that Cosmos and God is not so therefore we have no absolute proof therefore we believe in our position with faith.
And we atheists say "Unless you can give us proof for this ridiculous hypothesis, we are not going to believe you." You see? No faith involved on our part.
(December 31, 2012 at 12:02 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: Likewise thinking some athiests (in my opinion) would contend that the Cosmos does not need a creator to exist which again is a statement that can never be proved as each time we push back creation we find a new mystery that needs explaining but they have faith that science will finally push back the boundary to a final answer.
You see how you contradict your own position here? We've accepted the premise that something has always existed. Instead of making up that something, calling it god and believing in it by faith, we say that it is our spatio-temporally bound universe that has always existed. It is not a faith based position because, by definition, such a universe not existing at some point of time would be logically impossible. Not all of us expect a final answer and not all of us think that science can find it. In fact, not all of us believe that there is such a thing as a final answer.
(December 31, 2012 at 12:02 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: Other athiest would argue like Einstein in a non personal God alien to the general monotheist God again with no undisputable proof.
Then that person would not be an atheist.