Putting God to the Test

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I'm glad that you are happy and have a wife. However, as there is no empirical evidence that prayer does anything (in fact, there are numerous studies that show prayer is at best a placebo), I think you are giving poor advice on how to deal with a given situation.

Prayer has worked for me on numerous occassions.

for you, maybe, but there's nothing empirical that it does anything above and beyond a placebo effect.

See http://www.futureandahope.net for the recorded examples.

There's loads of examples on that site of how there's nothing scientifically proven about the effectiveness of prayer.

As for placebo studies, you can't just get together a group of Christians and get them pray.

Yes you can. Have you ever been to a hospital and seen people praying for their loved ones? Or even folk they don't know?

What about...in a church? I think this point needed thinking through more.

This might sound boastful, but most Christians don't have the gift of healing, and many Christian people respected by community have little respect by God.

I can't read any points in this statement, sorry. It means nothing.

Many mainstream faiths are full of powerless Christians with sin in their lives. God only allows the sinless, and faithful to perform miracles, and there are few Christians who fit that bill.

Give examples, and the evidence that supports them.

I'm sorry, but honestly, do you think we take random claims of the miraculous that aren't backed up with evidence seriously?

I don't mind the idea of a study, but I would be very selective in who I chose to take part.

And therein lies the problem. So who would you allow and why? And why the omission of those who you don't accept?

You also need a control group to make it fair and equal.

There are plenty of examples of divine healing recorded see http://www.wcdn.org/wcdn_eng/case/divine_case_e.asp it records cases of divine healing. Just becasue a few studies have shown prayer to be ineffective does not mean prayer does not work, the way the studies are set up are flawed.

1. You contradict your own point. You dismiss the studies (you haven't given particular reasons why you dismiss them...or even which studies you dismiss) because even if their conclusion is against your own belief, that doesn't prove anything. Well, what about the reverse? You believe divine miracles are real, and I don't, but yet I'm wrong and you're right?
2. Read the following review of some of the most famous studies on the efficacy of prayer (Byrd, Harris et. Al)

http://www.examiner.com/article/scientif...ory-prayer

I can post the articles directly if you want, but I'm not sure if you'll have access if you're not at a university or college etc.

All of these studies (and countless more that are not linked) found either that prayer did not work on a meaningful level equivelent to traditional medical science, else were nothing more than the placebo effect.

Further to this, the studies that found a positive placebo effect have actually since been found to be faulty in this methods and analysis. The article of course is simply one review, but perusing the articles themselves will lead you to the same conclusion. One was even fraudulent.

Every christian probably believes God can heal, but only a select few can.

If you want us to take this claim seriously, you will have to provide empirical evidence that backs up this claim.

you need to source people who have the gift. I know some who do have that gift, and they have even seen paralized people healed.

This is a lie until proven otherwise.

You cannot honestly claim that you have seen paralysed people healed through prayer and then not present evidence to back it up.

This is disingenuous and has no place in rational medical discourse.