(December 31, 2012 at 3:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote:

(December 31, 2012 at 12:46 pm)TaraJo Wrote: This line of thinking might have meant something for me, except that I used to be a Christian and I was as sincere as fuck when I prayed. All I wanted was a little comfort, but in the end, I got more of that from a teddy bear than any god.

I am sorry to hear this. I hope that you find your way back to God, as he really does have your best interests in mind.

Please don't do that. I can't speak for Tara, but I'm fairly sure she won't appreciate you telling her what you think her best interests are.

(December 31, 2012 at 3:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: My life at times, even as a Christian was full of deep sorrow. As an example I could never find a wife, I had some girlfriends but they would always end up dumping me and leaving me heart broken. I felt like God just did not care. One a few occasions I even sinned against God due to the fear, and sorrow. However God was gracious, and told me a person I could marry, the person actually ended up marrying me, and we have a very good relationship. So all my years of sorrow were taken away by God. Like that verse says, if we don't give up eventually we will get the answer to our prayers.

I'm glad that you are happy and have a wife. However, as there is no empirical evidence that prayer does anything (in fact, there are numerous studies that show prayer is at best a placebo), I think you are giving poor advice on how to deal with a given situation.

"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

(December 31, 2012 at 5:22 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: I'm glad that you are happy and have a wife. However, as there is no empirical evidence that prayer does anything (in fact, there are numerous studies that show prayer is at best a placebo), I think you are giving poor advice on how to deal with a given situation.

Prayer has worked for me on numerous occassions. See http://www.futureandahope.net for the recorded examples. As for placebo studies, you can't just get together a group of Christians and get them pray. This might sound boastful, but most Christians don't have the gift of healing, and many Christian people respected by community have little respect by God. Many mainstream faiths are full of powerless Christians with sin in their lives. God only allows the sinless, and faithful to perform miracles, and there are few Christians who fit that bill. I don't mind the idea of a study, but I would be very selective in who I chose to take part. There are plenty of examples of divine healing recorded see http://www.wcdn.org/wcdn_eng/case/divine_case_e.asp it records cases of divine healing. Just becasue a few studies have shown prayer to be ineffective does not mean prayer does not work, the way the studies are set up are flawed. Every christian probably believes God can heal, but only a select few can. You need to source people who have the gift. I know some who do have that gift, and they have even seen paralized people healed.

What a load of shit. What possible reason would your sorry excuse for a god have for not answering the prayers of young boys taking it in the ass from his emissaries?

FutureandHope, I've promised God in prayer that if the right person says the right words to me, that I'll do my best to convince myself of his existence (pray hard, attend church weekly, bible study, and so forth). I have intentionally set the bar low, but not super low, the words I want to hear would be out of character for the person I have in mind. I know that if there's a God, despite some verses in the NT about receiving what you ask for, he plays it close to the vest when it comes to granting prayers. The person is in their seventies, so there's a clock ticking.

Here's the thing. You can get the same results praying to Jo's teddy bear that you get from God. Sometimes you get what you pray for. That's how the teddy bear says yes. Sometimes you don't get what you prayed for. That's how the teddy bear says no.

There's a reason those Christian doctors aren't making the medical journals. Praying to the teddy bear will get you a certain percentage of recoveries and spontaneous remissions too, but the teddy can't restore amputated limbs.

(December 31, 2012 at 5:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: Prayer has worked for me on numerous occassions. See http://www.futureandahope.net for the recorded examples. As for placebo studies, you can't just get together a group of Christians and get them pray. This might sound boastful, but most Christians don't have the gift of healing, and many Christian people respected by community have little respect by God. Many mainstream faiths are full of powerless Christians with sin in their lives. God only allows the sinless, and faithful to perform miracles, and there are few Christians who fit that bill. I don't mind the idea of a study, but I would be very selective in who I chose to take part. There are plenty of examples of divine healing recorded see http://www.wcdn.org/wcdn_eng/case/divine_case_e.asp it records cases of divine healing. Just becasue a few studies have shown prayer to be ineffective does not mean prayer does not work, the way the studies are set up are flawed. Every christian probably believes God can heal, but only a select few can. You need to source people who have the gift. I know some who do have that gift, and they have even seen paralized people healed.

No paralyzed person has ever been faith healed. There is not one medical journal confirming this to have happened, ever.

Therefore you are either a) lying, or b) completely deluded.

Take your pick.

(December 31, 2012 at 5:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote:

(December 31, 2012 at 5:22 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: I'm glad that you are happy and have a wife. However, as there is no empirical evidence that prayer does anything (in fact, there are numerous studies that show prayer is at best a placebo), I think you are giving poor advice on how to deal with a given situation.

Prayer has worked for me on numerous occassions.

for you, maybe, but there's nothing empirical that it does anything above and beyond a placebo effect.

(December 31, 2012 at 5:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: See http://www.futureandahope.net for the recorded examples.

There's loads of examples on that site of how there's nothing scientifically proven about the effectiveness of prayer.

(December 31, 2012 at 5:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: As for placebo studies, you can't just get together a group of Christians and get them pray.

Yes you can. Have you ever been to a hospital and seen people praying for their loved ones? Or even folk they don't know?

What about...in a church? I think this point needed thinking through more.

(December 31, 2012 at 5:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: This might sound boastful, but most Christians don't have the gift of healing, and many Christian people respected by community have little respect by God.

I can't read any points in this statement, sorry. It means nothing.

(December 31, 2012 at 5:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: Many mainstream faiths are full of powerless Christians with sin in their lives. God only allows the sinless, and faithful to perform miracles, and there are few Christians who fit that bill.

Give examples, and the evidence that supports them.

I'm sorry, but honestly, do you think we take random claims of the miraculous that aren't backed up with evidence seriously?

(December 31, 2012 at 5:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: I don't mind the idea of a study, but I would be very selective in who I chose to take part.

And therein lies the problem. So who would you allow and why? And why the omission of those who you don't accept?

You also need a control group to make it fair and equal.

(December 31, 2012 at 5:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: There are plenty of examples of divine healing recorded see http://www.wcdn.org/wcdn_eng/case/divine_case_e.asp it records cases of divine healing. Just becasue a few studies have shown prayer to be ineffective does not mean prayer does not work, the way the studies are set up are flawed.

1. You contradict your own point. You dismiss the studies (you haven't given particular reasons why you dismiss them...or even which studies you dismiss) because even if their conclusion is against your own belief, that doesn't prove anything. Well, what about the reverse? You believe divine miracles are real, and I don't, but yet I'm wrong and you're right?
2. Read the following review of some of the most famous studies on the efficacy of prayer (Byrd, Harris et. Al)

http://www.examiner.com/article/scientif...ory-prayer

I can post the articles directly if you want, but I'm not sure if you'll have access if you're not at a university or college etc.

All of these studies (and countless more that are not linked) found either that prayer did not work on a meaningful level equivelent to traditional medical science, else were nothing more than the placebo effect.

Further to this, the studies that found a positive placebo effect have actually since been found to be faulty in this methods and analysis. The article of course is simply one review, but perusing the articles themselves will lead you to the same conclusion. One was even fraudulent.

(December 31, 2012 at 5:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: Every christian probably believes God can heal, but only a select few can.

If you want us to take this claim seriously, you will have to provide empirical evidence that backs up this claim.

(December 31, 2012 at 5:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: you need to source people who have the gift. I know some who do have that gift, and they have even seen paralized people healed.

This is a lie until proven otherwise.

You cannot honestly claim that you have seen paralysed people healed through prayer and then not present evidence to back it up.

This is disingenuous and has no place in rational medical discourse.

(December 31, 2012 at 12:46 pm)TaraJo Wrote: This line of thinking might have meant something for me, except that I used to be a Christian and I was as sincere as fuck when I prayed. All I wanted was a little comfort, but in the end, I got more of that from a teddy bear than any god.

(December 31, 2012 at 6:26 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: No paralyzed person has ever been faith healed. There is not one medical journal confirming this to have happened, ever.

Therefore you are either a) lying, or b) completely deluded.

Take your pick.

Here is one example of a paralized person being healed with medical evidence. http://www.wcdn.org/wcdn_eng/case/case_c...=49&page=1

The person who was healed of Paraplegia that I mentioned earlier was healed by a friend of mine, and I know he is neither mad or deluded. Like I said I have healed a woman with a bad back instantly through prayer. Why would I think it amazing that my friend could heal a person. He sought God with prayer and fasting for over 30 days to start working miracles.

(December 31, 2012 at 8:05 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote:

(December 31, 2012 at 6:26 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: No paralyzed person has ever been faith healed. There is not one medical journal confirming this to have happened, ever.

Therefore you are either a) lying, or b) completely deluded.

Take your pick.

Here is one example of a paralized person being healed with medical evidence. http://www.wcdn.org/wcdn_eng/case/case_c...=49&page=1

The person who was healed of Paraplegia that I mentioned earlier was healed by a friend of mine, and I know he is neither mad or deluded. Like I said I have healed a woman with a bad back instantly through prayer. Why would I think it amazing that my friend could heal a person. He sought God with prayer and fasting for over 30 days to start working miracles.

The link appears to be broken (this may just be my iPad however).

(December 31, 2012 at 8:11 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote:

(December 31, 2012 at 8:05 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: Here is one example of a paralized person being healed with medical evidence. http://www.wcdn.org/wcdn_eng/case/case_c...=49&page=1

The person who was healed of Paraplegia that I mentioned earlier was healed by a friend of mine, and I know he is neither mad or deluded. Like I said I have healed a woman with a bad back instantly through prayer. Why would I think it amazing that my friend could heal a person. He sought God with prayer and fasting for over 30 days to start working miracles.

The link appears to be broken (this may just be my iPad however).

The link works... strangely, not at first.
And it has a before and after shot as well.... with the word "prayer" in between.
But it seems they neglect to mention the surgery that must have been performed in between as well (http://nervous-system.emedtv.com/spina-b...ifida.html):

Quote:There is no cure for spina bifida; the nerve tissue that is damaged or lost cannot be repaired or replaced. Treatment of spina bifida will depend on the type and severity of the disorder. Although children with the mild form usually do not need treatment, they may require surgery as they grow.

This was apparently a mild case of the problem...