free will paradox

[Esquilax]

Wow you're obstinate! lol Do you think that your obstinance might limit your fullfilment of life? THAT's what I'm talking about. Your punishment, self inflicted, is you stunting yourself.

Consider it passion. I actually enjoy argumentation, so this isn't some neurotic thing for me. I just find it enriching to have to format my ideas in response to someone else.

Posthumous justice is another subject. Lets try and keep this separate. Posthumously God exacts justice, so that in this life, we can reason with justice fully realised. That's it. Story over.

Well, this is where I have a problem with your worldview. I get uneasy around this concept of posthumous justice because I get the feeling I'm destined for some of it too, in your book, without ever having committed an act worthy of, well, hell. Would you mind explaining exactly what you mean when you talk of posthumous justice? I think I'd have an easier time explaining my position if I knew the method you had in mind by which this justice is meted out.

Posthumous hel is about justice for everything. If you need to make up a bit to be perfect, then you don't go to perfect school. Christians have accepted the get out of jail card, that was freely offered. Likewise if they need stuff sorting out, they will spend some time in remand too. Only God knows this. Don't fret yourself about it. If you don't want the gift, then that's up to you.

Well, I'll compliment you on not subscribing to the nasty and self righteous infinite hell school of thought. You do have the right idea in that this version of hell allows one to learn from his mistakes, and therefore it's infinitely wiser than the traditional brimstone version (Hell Classic, if you like ) I do still want to know if this hell is as fiery and demon filled as the one depicted biblically, though. Corrective actions are one thing, but I could never condone that hell.

The other important question I have relates to the criteria of entry: would I be sent there for, say, homosexuality? Working on the sabbath? Anything like that? Does my nonbelief and refusal to kowtow to the rules in the bible I find strange or bigoted or immoral contribute to the length of time I would spend there? Because it's one thing to mete out punishment for murdering someone, and quite another to do the same because I don't hate the correct people according to a holy book.

If you read it it's more self reported put downs. Some say that is why it became so popular... because it matches the self depricating persona of modern man.

Isn't there also a lot of terrible stuff in the bible that's lauded by the narrative voice there?

I look at every other religion. Essentially they all address the quest for meaning and purpose. None other, that I've found, take the last evolutionary step which is to make a way possible to solve humanities problem of fallability.

Probably gonna need a little more on that last thing. Are we still talking about hell, there?

The bible doesn't promote slavery. The bible shows God trying to change people into being fair with those in their charge. It's a historical document reflecting the practices of the times. To us it is foreign and hard to understand because we have a totally different setup now. I wouldn't like to say which one is best without fully appreciating their POV. I'd guess that there are strengths and weaknesses on both sides.
More adopted to the times than advanced I would suggest.

Okay, this one I do genuinely take exception to: is it a historical document, and hence reflective of the climate of the time, or is it god's word as to the life he would want his followers to lead? You have the ten commandments and such on one side, indicating the latter, but there's also instructions for owning slaves in there too, among other questionable acts. Are you saying that at one point it was moral to own slaves, but now it isn't? And to be clear, these are definitely instructions for slavery, detailing who you can take as a slave, and the criteria by which you can beat them; this is hardly just instructions for caring for people under you.

Besides which, wouldn't god, in his instructional passages to his flock, be able to set out exactly the kind of society he wanted to see? Why add those instructions at all, if this kind of slavery would be found immoral in time? Unless god actually advocates the owning of another human being?

You are implored to deal with it yourself. The choice is entirely yours. Posthumously, when you as a non believer have no interest in it, god exactls justice. In this life, it rains on the just exactly the same as it rains in the unjust.

The metric of this heavenly father is perfect justice. Why not use it? If you suggest an alternative would it be better? That would be illogical. you're objecting to a perfect judgement... I find it difficult to understand your logic there.
By who's standard are you judging yourself then? If you consider perfect judgement on yourself, then you are considering God. If you think you measure up to that, good for you. All anyone can do is try. Sometimes I find Christians quite immoral... they can fall back on the false idea that they can get away with immorality because of their get out of jail free card. That just doesn't work of course. Justice has to be served and will be. what's important to us now though is not limiting our potential. Those Christians don't mean well and limit themselves just the same as you might.

I'll hold off on this one until I know exactly what you have in mind when you say posthumous justice, though I do think it's worthy of discussion.

Like I've said, I think the point of posthumous judgement is for us to be abke to rationalise a just reality. When reality is unjust that becomes a problem, and one you have to address.
We do good because it bears reward. That's how good works. The reward can be unspoken, unknown to anyone but you, but still you gain.
So you can do good without belief in God, sure. But your rational universe doesn't support you. Hence Christianity/ the religious endeavour.

Why do I need a rationalization beyond the idea that doing good things is the right thing to do, and that I feel happy when others are? This is one arena where I'm more than happy to appeal to emotions, because empathy is really important to being human.

Sometimes, the answer really can just be as simple as "it feels right."