Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: August 12, 2026, 5:06 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
free will paradox
#60
RE: free will paradox
(February 10, 2013 at 4:44 am)fr0d0 Wrote: What is so bad about justice any way? Do you have a problem with fairness? I'd be interested to hear your world view where injustice is desirable. Seems crazy to me right now.

Whether a world in which there is no ultimate justice is desirable or not is completely irrelevant to whether or not it is true that we live in a world without ultimate justice. What you want to believe to be true is immaterial; wanting something to be true doesn't make it true. That's just wishful thinking. Whether you find the prospect that there is no justice unpleasant or not, your desires in the matter are not evidence one way or the other as to whether there is ultimate justice or not. So until you either demonstrate the actual existence of this daddy who's gonna make everything all right, or show that we do not live in a world in which there is no ultimate justice, all your mewling about what is desirable is just so much pointless fantasizing.

To be sure, I believe there are strong biological reasons why humans yearn for some form of ultimate retributive justice (whether Karma, divine punishment, or this modern theology of reactivity to the love of, and distancing from, God [which itself is strikingly similar to certain conceptions of Karma]). The fact that people interpret reality in terms of fairness has deep roots in our nature as a social species, so I can forgive it's flowering in terms of wishful thinking. I'm not going to go any deeper into the biology and psychology of this phenomena other than to point out that the existence of explanations for your "felt need" for there to be ultimate justice, explanations which pan out in evolutionary terms, means that your "God explains it" isn't the only horse in the running, and so you need to demonstrate that your god hypothesis explains the facts themselves, not simply that god "could" explain it, that god "seems like a plausible explanation," or even that there doesn't appear to be any other explanation. (The latter an argument from ignorance.)

So, without assuming the existence of God:
a) what is your evidence that we don't live in a world (afterlife included) that is ultimately unfair and lacking in ultimate justice?
b) why do you feel there needs to be ultimate justice, or even that it would be desirable? (This ties back into the biology; the biology explains why we feel there is a need for fairness and ultimate justice; the question is, what facts independent of that feeling suggest that there "should be" ultimate justice?)


[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
Reply



Messages In This Thread
free will paradox - by justin - February 3, 2013 at 10:55 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Angrboda - February 3, 2013 at 11:14 pm
RE: free will paradox - by justin - February 3, 2013 at 11:34 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Esquilax - February 3, 2013 at 11:42 pm
Re: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 4, 2013 at 4:01 am
RE: free will paradox - by Angrboda - February 4, 2013 at 6:31 am
RE: free will paradox - by ManMachine - February 5, 2013 at 7:43 pm
RE: free will paradox - by FKHansen - February 4, 2013 at 8:43 am
RE: free will paradox - by Gabriel Syme - May 1, 2013 at 3:55 pm
RE: free will paradox - by justin - February 4, 2013 at 8:55 am
Re: RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 4, 2013 at 9:13 am
RE: free will paradox - by FKHansen - February 4, 2013 at 9:24 am
RE: free will paradox - by justin - February 4, 2013 at 9:53 am
RE: free will paradox - by Something completely different - February 4, 2013 at 9:56 am
RE: free will paradox - by justin - February 4, 2013 at 10:16 am
Re: RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 4, 2013 at 10:27 am
RE: free will paradox - by FKHansen - February 5, 2013 at 4:14 am
RE: free will paradox - by justin - February 4, 2013 at 11:38 am
Re: RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 4, 2013 at 1:00 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Tea Earl Grey Hot - February 4, 2013 at 1:05 pm
RE: free will paradox - by justin - February 4, 2013 at 1:12 pm
RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 4, 2013 at 4:08 pm
RE: free will paradox - by naimless - February 4, 2013 at 4:16 pm
Re: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 4, 2013 at 8:54 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Zen Badger - February 5, 2013 at 4:29 am
Re: RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 5, 2013 at 6:06 am
RE: free will paradox - by Zen Badger - February 5, 2013 at 6:24 am
RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 5, 2013 at 8:41 am
RE: free will paradox - by Zen Badger - February 5, 2013 at 8:50 am
RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 5, 2013 at 8:55 am
RE: free will paradox - by Zen Badger - February 6, 2013 at 6:13 am
RE: free will paradox - by Mystical - February 5, 2013 at 8:36 pm
Re: RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 6, 2013 at 3:06 am
RE: free will paradox - by Esquilax - February 6, 2013 at 3:48 am
Re: RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 6, 2013 at 4:10 am
RE: free will paradox - by Esquilax - February 6, 2013 at 9:00 am
RE: free will paradox - by Angrboda - February 6, 2013 at 10:03 am
Re: RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 6, 2013 at 2:39 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Mystical - February 6, 2013 at 4:02 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Esquilax - February 6, 2013 at 6:53 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Ryantology - February 6, 2013 at 4:34 pm
Re: RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 6, 2013 at 5:32 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Ryantology - February 6, 2013 at 7:23 pm
RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 6, 2013 at 7:34 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Darkstar - February 6, 2013 at 8:01 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Esquilax - February 6, 2013 at 8:53 pm
RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 7, 2013 at 4:57 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Ryantology - February 7, 2013 at 6:00 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Esquilax - February 7, 2013 at 8:42 pm
RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 8, 2013 at 3:45 am
RE: free will paradox - by Esquilax - February 8, 2013 at 10:04 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Angrboda - February 6, 2013 at 8:32 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Mystical - February 6, 2013 at 9:28 pm
RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 7, 2013 at 6:10 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Mystical - February 10, 2013 at 2:12 am
RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 10, 2013 at 7:07 am
RE: free will paradox - by Angrboda - February 10, 2013 at 8:27 am
RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - April 8, 2013 at 1:52 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Angrboda - April 9, 2013 at 2:16 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Mystical - April 9, 2013 at 11:00 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Esquilax - April 10, 2013 at 2:20 am
RE: free will paradox - by Angrboda - February 6, 2013 at 11:48 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Angrboda - February 8, 2013 at 12:43 am
Re: RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 9, 2013 at 3:03 am
RE: free will paradox - by Ryantology - February 10, 2013 at 4:00 am
Re: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 10, 2013 at 4:44 am
RE: free will paradox - by Angrboda - February 10, 2013 at 6:31 am
RE: free will paradox - by Ryantology - February 10, 2013 at 7:22 am
Re: RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - February 10, 2013 at 7:57 am
RE: free will paradox - by Phish - February 10, 2013 at 8:01 am
RE: free will paradox - by Ryantology - February 10, 2013 at 2:53 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Captain Scarlet - February 10, 2013 at 12:43 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Mystical - February 10, 2013 at 9:13 am
RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - April 9, 2013 at 4:06 pm
RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - April 10, 2013 at 2:08 am
RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - April 10, 2013 at 8:23 am
RE: free will paradox - by Esquilax - April 10, 2013 at 10:29 am
RE: free will paradox - by Mystical - April 10, 2013 at 11:44 am
RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - April 10, 2013 at 4:29 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Ryantology - April 10, 2013 at 4:38 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Esquilax - April 10, 2013 at 10:15 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Mystical - April 11, 2013 at 1:18 am
RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - April 14, 2013 at 4:16 am
RE: free will paradox - by Mystical - April 14, 2013 at 5:59 am
RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - April 14, 2013 at 9:40 am
RE: free will paradox - by Mystical - April 15, 2013 at 12:21 am
RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - April 15, 2013 at 5:09 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Esquilax - April 14, 2013 at 9:41 am
RE: free will paradox - by fr0d0 - April 11, 2013 at 2:38 am
RE: free will paradox - by Esquilax - April 11, 2013 at 3:42 am
RE: free will paradox - by Mystical - April 14, 2013 at 12:41 am
RE: free will paradox - by Ryantology - April 11, 2013 at 1:56 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Severan - April 12, 2013 at 1:49 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Darkstar - April 12, 2013 at 3:07 pm
RE: free will paradox - by justin - April 13, 2013 at 2:54 am
RE: free will paradox - by Severan - April 13, 2013 at 2:33 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Godschild - April 15, 2013 at 3:40 am
RE: free will paradox - by Severan - April 15, 2013 at 11:00 am
RE: free will paradox - by Anomalocaris - May 1, 2013 at 3:59 pm
RE: free will paradox - by Ryantology - May 1, 2013 at 4:07 pm
RE: free will paradox - by wwjs - May 1, 2013 at 4:15 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Do you believe in free will? Disagreeable 37 7947 August 4, 2024 at 7:15 am
Last Post: Disagreeable
  Newcomb's Paradox GrandizerII 23 6683 July 12, 2023 at 10:32 am
Last Post: awty
  Understanding the rudiment has much to give helps free that mind for further work. highdimensionman 16 4030 May 24, 2022 at 6:31 am
Last Post: highdimensionman
  Free Will Debate Alan V 82 21623 November 27, 2021 at 7:08 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  A 'proof' of God's existence - free will mrj 54 16833 August 9, 2020 at 10:25 am
Last Post: Sal
  Are there other paradoxes analogous to the so-called "Paradox of Hedonism"? Porcupine 4 1527 July 17, 2020 at 3:58 am
Last Post: Porcupine
  Oh no not another free will thread. Edwardo Piet 309 93689 April 29, 2018 at 11:45 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  The Paradox of tolerance and current events TaraJo 16 8052 August 19, 2017 at 8:49 pm
Last Post: The Industrial Atheist
  WLC, Free Will, and God's divine foreknowledge SuperSentient 15 6137 April 1, 2017 at 2:50 am
Last Post: bennyboy
  Why free will probably does not exist, and why we should stop treating people - WisdomOfTheTrees 22 8985 February 8, 2017 at 7:43 pm
Last Post: WisdomOfTheTrees



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)