For People Who Think There Was No Historical Jesus

[Confused Ape]

Paraphrased slightly, this is "we don't know how this religion got started, we can't imagine how it got started without a Jesus, so we're going to assume one existed and the skeptic has to prove otherwise."

I've actually come up with two different ideas in this topic for how Christianity could have got started without a Jesus. One's a bit far fetched but something like it isn't necessarily impossible. Even though I think there might have been a real man behind the myths and legends I was able to take the view that he didn't exist because Christianity still had to get started somehow if there wasn't anyone at all.

In Post Post #161 I quoted from the Problem With Paul article so I could use something in it as a basis for Christianity without any real Jesus behind the myths and legends. The quote I used is as follows -

A source of information about Paul that has never been taken seriously enough is a group called the Ebionites. Their writings were suppressed by the Church, but some of their views and traditions were preserved in the writings of their opponents, particularly in the huge treatise on Heresies by Epiphanius. From this it appears that the Ebionites had a very different account to give of Paul's background and early life from that found in the New Testament and fostered by Paul himself. The Ebionites testified that Paul had no Pharisaic background or training; he was the son of Gentiles, converted to Judaism in Tarsus, came to Jerusalem when an adult, and attached himself to the High Priest as a henchman. Disappointed in his hopes of advancement, he broke with the High Priest and sought fame by founding a new religion. This account, while not reliable in all its details, is substantially correct. It makes far more sense of all the puzzling and contradictory features of the story of Paul than the account of the official documents of the Church.

I then said -

The rest of the article goes on the assumption that there really was a Jesus and the Nazarene sect had been founded by his followers but maybe the above is enough to explain Paul's actions. Realising he wouldn't have a glittering career because he was a convert without Pharisaic training he decided to leave Judea and start a religious cult. People are still starting religious cults and lying about their backgrounds so it wouldn't be impossible for Paul to have done this.

In Post #108 I came up with a somewhat far fetched idea based on something I read in a discussion about Yeishu ha Notzri - I won't quote it all again here because people can find it in Post #108.

There are several interesting references to a Yeishu ha Notzri (note the resemblance of the name to "Jesus of Nazareth"), who traveled around and practiced magic during the reign of Alexander Janneus, who ruled Palestine from 104 to 78 BCE.

My idea based on that was -

It doesn't matter if Yeishu ha Notzri really existed because we're going on the assumption that Jesus didn't exist. All it would need is a Jewish sect whose members believed that Yeishu ha Notzri had been a real person.

One of the members - I'll call him Fred - developed schizophrenia and had delusions of YHN talking to him and saying he was the son of God. Fred's knowledge that the Romans crucified criminals was incorporated into his delusions so he believed that YHN had been crucified by Pontius Pilate. As Yeshua was a common name at the time his delusions also told him that YHN's real name was Yeshua. Bits and pieces of YHN's story were combined into a jumbled history of Yeshua along with the idea that Yeshua must have been resurrected because Fred was having a conversation with him.

Fred was thrown out of the sect so he went to the Gentiles and the rest is history. (Paul of Tarsus was based on him).

This one was inspired by something in Paul's letter to the Galatians because it made me think of someone holding conversations with a delusion -

11 For I would have you know, brethren,
that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it,
but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul would still have claimed that if he'd decided to start his own cult, of course.

Pagan elements got sprinkled into Judaism all along.

As I've posted before, likely Jews chaffing under foreign rule wondering WTF happened to their covenant with Yahweh and why isn't the "seed of David" sitting on the throne. Some decided their messiah lived in a higher world and so Revelation was written.

You've now got an original Jewish sect which Christianity could have split away from. This is the kind of idea I've been asking people to come up with.

Me - If not, why did a religion about a divine being who was supposed to be the real Jewish Messiah come into existence outside Judea?

Because Judea was under Roman rule and so an earthly Messiah seemed unlikely to some. Some of them looked to a higher realm for their salvation.

This is a good idea for how the original Jewish sect could have started outside Judea.

The final step is suggesting how the Gentiles could have learned what either of your suggested Jewish sects believed so they could develop it into Christianity.

But it was Marcion who first discovered and promoted the letters of Paul as the scripture of the Marcionite Christians.

[*]What we have of Paul isn't what was originally written by Paul assuming there even was a Paul
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The third is consistent with the problems of pseudo-epigraphy and interpolation, which abounds with holy scriptures of the time.

If Marcion c.85 – c.160. invented Paul, how did the teachings of a Jewish sect get taken to the Gentiles? I had a go at inventing Fred just to see if I could come up with an idea about how Christianity could have got started without a Jesus or a Paul. I found no Jesus easier to explain than no Paul so I had to resort to somebody Paul could have been based on.