Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: February 17, 2025, 8:39 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
consciousness?
#70
RE: consciousness?
(February 24, 2013 at 5:19 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: You’re reading too much into my posts. Descriptions of mind-states and descriptions of brain-states are clearly distinct. This says nothing about whether that means there are actually two different substantial entities, two entities of which one is material and the other immaterial, two distinct aspects of a single thing, or a single thing differently described.

This may not, but your arguments do.

(February 24, 2013 at 5:19 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: You forget that one can interpret evidence to support multiple conclusions.

Which is why it is a bad idea to go on just a single piece of evidence.

(February 24, 2013 at 5:19 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Using neuro-physical evidence to support physical theories denies that qualitiative experiences have any influence over the causal chain. External stimulation of the brain generating feelings of love does not automatically exclude the possibility that feelings of love influence physical changes in the brain. Clearly, reality consists of both observable third-person facts and first-person qualitative experiences. This allows us to describe reality with in two distinct ways, such as:

Example A: Stimulation of the olfactory cortex activates the hippocampus which stimulates the release of dopamine.

Example B: The smell of perfume sparks my memory of grandmother and I have feelings of love.

Example C: Burning pain is followed by the taste of vinegar leading to a lust for power.

Now without mutual interaction, it doesn’t’ matter what felt experiences accompany the physical events. The physical events of A could just as easily generate the subjective experience of C as those of B. That would be absurd, but no physical theory can exclude it.

No - not "just as easily". Your idea that the physical theory reduces all sensations to indistinguishable neural signals is about as ridiculous as saying that if only electrical signals are perceived to be flowing into the computer, it'd be impossible to tell if porn or a virus is being downloaded. In fact, most of neuroscience is about finding that distinction.

(February 24, 2013 at 5:19 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Moreover, if only physical processes are causal, then thinking, feeling and willing would have no significance and ‘you’ are just along for the ride, slavishly following a blind electro-chemical reaction that churns along deterministicly. There can be no room for free will, moral values, true understanding, or meaningful contemplation. It makes much more sense to believe that mental-properties really do have some over influence physical processes, even if the current scientific model cannot explain how.

This argument works only if you assume that 'you' are something other than the sum of those electro-chemical reactions. That would be an illusion not supported by evidence we have. Given this idea of 'you', it's no wonder you see a schism between determinism and free-will/morality/understanding etc.

(February 24, 2013 at 5:19 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: The functionalist position, which you favor, already concedes a mutual dependence between material and immaterial properties. Translating every mental-property into a ‘function’ only gives the appearance of reducing mental properties to physical ones. The difference between ‘loving’ and the ‘function of loving’ is purely semantic. Thus a causal chain that reads, “The function of remembering a beloved leads to the function of feeling loved” is merely a complicated way of saying, “Remembering a beloved leads to feeling loved.” Nothing is added to the meaning of the description by adding the word ‘function’. Changing the description does not alter whether or not the chain of events is composed of mental events versus purely physical ones.

No, it does not. What it does is explain how sensations are felt and how they interact with the causal chain.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
consciousness? - by Alfred - December 15, 2012 at 5:59 pm
RE: consciousness? - by genkaus - December 15, 2012 at 6:30 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Alfred - December 15, 2012 at 6:43 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Severan - February 27, 2013 at 11:33 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Angrboda - February 28, 2013 at 12:31 am
RE: consciousness? - by Voltron - December 15, 2012 at 7:03 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Alfred - December 15, 2012 at 7:41 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Voltron - December 15, 2012 at 8:03 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Norfolk And Chance - December 16, 2012 at 8:15 am
RE: consciousness? - by dj-hato - February 2, 2013 at 12:09 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Angrboda - February 3, 2013 at 3:29 am
RE: consciousness? - by Zone - February 2, 2013 at 3:32 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Ben Davis - February 2, 2013 at 8:15 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Ryantology - February 3, 2013 at 3:52 am
RE: consciousness? - by Rhizomorph13 - February 3, 2013 at 6:04 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 16, 2013 at 2:30 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Whateverist - February 16, 2013 at 11:29 pm
RE: consciousness? - by justin - February 16, 2013 at 5:52 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 16, 2013 at 10:10 pm
RE: consciousness? - by genkaus - February 16, 2013 at 11:47 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 17, 2013 at 1:28 am
RE: consciousness? - by genkaus - February 17, 2013 at 3:53 am
RE: consciousness? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 17, 2013 at 12:48 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Anomalocaris - February 17, 2013 at 1:29 pm
RE: consciousness? - by genkaus - February 17, 2013 at 2:53 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Ryantology - February 17, 2013 at 1:52 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Whateverist - February 17, 2013 at 3:19 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Annik - February 17, 2013 at 3:29 pm
RE: consciousness? - by justin - February 17, 2013 at 11:01 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Anomalocaris - February 17, 2013 at 1:54 am
RE: consciousness? - by Angrboda - February 17, 2013 at 6:49 am
Re: RE: consciousness? - by fr0d0 - February 17, 2013 at 2:07 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Ryantology - February 17, 2013 at 2:27 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 17, 2013 at 4:42 pm
RE: consciousness? - by genkaus - February 18, 2013 at 2:18 am
RE: consciousness? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 18, 2013 at 11:12 am
RE: consciousness? - by genkaus - February 18, 2013 at 2:43 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Annik - February 17, 2013 at 4:57 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Ryantology - February 17, 2013 at 5:14 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Angrboda - February 17, 2013 at 5:41 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 17, 2013 at 7:03 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Ryantology - February 17, 2013 at 7:46 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 18, 2013 at 1:22 am
Re: consciousness? - by fr0d0 - February 17, 2013 at 7:29 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Rayaan - February 17, 2013 at 9:37 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Jackalope - February 17, 2013 at 10:24 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Rayaan - February 17, 2013 at 10:35 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Jackalope - February 17, 2013 at 10:43 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Angrboda - February 18, 2013 at 5:33 am
RE: consciousness? - by Ryantology - February 18, 2013 at 12:13 am
RE: consciousness? - by Jackalope - February 18, 2013 at 12:38 am
RE: consciousness? - by Question Mark - February 17, 2013 at 10:54 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Rayaan - February 18, 2013 at 7:31 am
RE: consciousness? - by Ryantology - February 18, 2013 at 8:10 am
RE: consciousness? - by Question Mark - February 18, 2013 at 9:53 am
RE: consciousness? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 18, 2013 at 6:46 pm
RE: consciousness? - by genkaus - February 19, 2013 at 2:11 am
RE: consciousness? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 19, 2013 at 11:10 am
RE: consciousness? - by genkaus - February 19, 2013 at 11:41 am
RE: consciousness? - by downbeatplumb - February 19, 2013 at 3:27 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 22, 2013 at 2:56 pm
RE: consciousness? - by genkaus - February 23, 2013 at 9:51 am
What difference does it make? - by Whateverist - February 23, 2013 at 10:56 am
RE: consciousness? - by downbeatplumb - February 26, 2013 at 4:52 am
RE: consciousness? - by The Grand Nudger - February 22, 2013 at 2:59 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Annik - February 22, 2013 at 3:01 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 23, 2013 at 10:37 pm
RE: consciousness? - by genkaus - February 24, 2013 at 11:17 am
RE: consciousness? - by Whateverist - February 24, 2013 at 12:06 pm
RE: consciousness? - by The Grand Nudger - February 24, 2013 at 1:05 am
RE: consciousness? - by The Grand Nudger - February 24, 2013 at 11:42 am
RE: consciousness? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 24, 2013 at 5:19 pm
RE: consciousness? - by genkaus - February 25, 2013 at 12:02 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 25, 2013 at 11:21 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Angrboda - February 26, 2013 at 1:06 am
RE: consciousness? - by genkaus - February 26, 2013 at 4:27 am
RE: consciousness? - by Angrboda - February 25, 2013 at 10:19 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 26, 2013 at 12:42 pm
RE: consciousness? - by genkaus - February 26, 2013 at 1:48 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 26, 2013 at 2:36 pm
RE: consciousness? - by genkaus - February 26, 2013 at 3:25 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Angrboda - February 26, 2013 at 10:12 pm
RE: consciousness? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 27, 2013 at 11:47 am

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Good read on consciousness Apollo 41 3608 January 12, 2021 at 4:04 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  How could we trust our consciousness ?! zainab 45 6740 December 30, 2018 at 9:08 am
Last Post: polymath257
  Consciousness Trilemma Neo-Scholastic 208 63522 June 7, 2017 at 5:28 pm
Last Post: bennyboy
  Trying to simplify my Consciousness hypothesis Won2blv 83 17338 February 21, 2017 at 1:31 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  My thoughts on the Hard problem of consciousness Won2blv 36 7078 February 15, 2017 at 7:27 am
Last Post: bennyboy
  A hypothesis about consciousness Won2blv 12 4653 February 12, 2017 at 9:31 pm
Last Post: Won2blv
  Foundation of all Axioms the Axioms of Consciousness fdesilva 98 18734 September 24, 2016 at 4:36 pm
Last Post: Bunburryist
  Consciousness is simply an illusion emergent of a Boltzmann brain configuration.... maestroanth 36 7083 April 10, 2016 at 8:40 am
Last Post: Little lunch
  On naturalism and consciousness FallentoReason 291 56389 September 15, 2014 at 9:26 pm
Last Post: dissily mordentroge
  Does it make sense to speak of "Universal Consciousness" or "Universal Intelligence"? Mudhammam 253 54902 June 8, 2014 at 12:04 pm
Last Post: Mudhammam



Users browsing this thread: 5 Guest(s)