Is the catholic church a force for good?

[Lion IRC]

No. They do not all know 100% for certain.
There are those who hope there is an afterlife and yet still doubt. There are those who do not presume their own salvation even if they DO think God definitely exists.
It's not a matter of simply buying your way into heaven by ''good works''.

But earlier you said you "thought the best contender would be laying down your earthly life for your fellow humans with no earthly reward. (ie. no insurance policy payout to your surviving relatives.) Self-sacrifice purely for love, done in the faith that there is an afterlife." And it may not be a matter of buying your way into heaven, but that doesn't mean that someone who sacrifices his life doesn't have that reward as an expectation. I find it hard to believe that a theist can disregard such an important factor in making the decision to offer his life for another, since it's the only difference between him and the atheist. Once you remove it, they're on common ground.

The scenario is that neither the atheist nor the theist gains any earthly reward. Thats a level playing field. The challenge would be for the atheist to show a corresponding sacrifice for no earthly gain.

I heard one Christian guy, Mark Roberts, suggest to Christopher Hitchens that praying for someone would meet the challenge (atheists couldnt pray with integrity) but that was a stretch because the atheist wants proof that praying is actually ''doing'' something.

So is he admitting that using prayer is a bad test because it wouldn't be possible to prove that it works? And that therefore, it's better to use another option, where the rewards are equally impossible to prove (at least to those who remain behind)?

If the atheist is allowed to invoke an accusation against the theist that the possibility of heaven is a theist's ''reward'' for laying down one's life, then the act of praying should be put back onto the table as a moral action that an atheist couldnt do.

If the atheist says heaven doesnt exist, then going to heaven cant be called a reward. And if praying isnt seen as a moral action because atheists say there is no One listening, then it falls into the same category.

But these acts, (that an atheist couldnt do,) can result in very real, positive moral outcomes in terms of human happiness and good will even if the atheist says heaven and prayer can't be empirically verified.