Show me your proof

[Mr_Dew7]

Omnipotence is impossible due to paradoxes

Another way to disprove the almighty god is that omnipotence leads to paradoxes. Can god make a rock that is too heavy for him to carry? Can god build a wall that even he can't tear down?

Paradoxes by definition are things that contradict themselves but are true. And yes, while it may seem impossible to you and I, wouldn't you expect an omnipotent Creator to be able to do the impossible? The human definition of impossible should be expected from someone with ultimate power. Omnipotent is defined as having ultimate power, which means that one who is omnipotent is able to do whatever He desires. If He desires to create a rock that is too heavy for Him to carry, then one with ultimate power would be able to do so. But then the impossiblity of Him being able to lift said rock is also possible to an almight and all powerful being.

Also, if god knows everything, he knows what he will do in the "future" (in any dimension, not necessary the time dimension). He must have known that from the very start of his own existence. Thus god's actions are predestined. God is tied by faith, he has no free will. If god has no free will god is not omnipotent. Another way to put it is that to be able to make plans and decisions one must act over time. If god stands above time he can not do that and has no free will. Indeed, if god stands above all dimensions god is dimensionless - a singularity, nothing, void.

He does know everything yes, because He is the creator of everything. You understand that a being capable of ultimate power, can do anything inside and outside of human beliefs and expectations, right? And also God created the existence of everything and everything in existence. I hesitate to use the human definition of existence because it is defined as the fact or state of continued being, and we know that to continue doing something one must be under the law of time! So I can say that God doesn't exist in our limited understanding of what is possible. He is as He names Himself in Exodus when He calls Himself "I AM". It means that He is, simple. And I see your line of reasoning here, and to my mind it makes some sense, until I take into account the "impossiblity of impossiblity". To us, it is impossible to do the impossible, to God, the impossible is possible. He created both possible and impossible courses of action. Everything that humans have done or have ever thought of, is only inside realm of what we view as possible, aside from those who perform miracles with the power of the Holy Spirit. When our limited scope of things runs into the unlimited power of God, we automatically take a stance of defense, because obviously in our eyes this is impossible, and therefore not real. God is not held by any predestination. How can an omnipotent being be held by any thing that He does not wish to be held down by? God is not tied by faith, and is above both faith and free will. How can you question whether or not someone of ultimate power, which is more power than anything else, is held down by something as trivial as free will? Yes, HUMANS must act over time to come to any sort of logical conclusion or course of action, but how can an omnipotent being who is outside of time and who created time, be held by time's laws, and how can said being be subject to any of His own creations if He does not wish to be? To our minds a dimensionless being would be actually nothing, but again, wouldn't an omnipotent being be able to do anything He wishes? To be outside of all created things is, I'm sure, a trivial thing for an a being of ultimate and unequaled power.

Besides there can exist no free wills at all if god is almighty. If you had a free will, god wouldn't know what you would do tomorrow and wouldn't be omnipotent.

So you suggest that an omnipotent God could not see every line of reasoning, every possible path? Again, omnipotent is defined as having ultimate power. Ultimate power is the power to do anything, whether it seems possible to our frail and fallible human minds or not.
And wouldn't said omnipotent being, who created time and is outside of time, be able to view all of time? Wouldn't He be able to allow creation the free will to decide for itself what it does and doesn't believe in? There are no limits to ultimate power, you know.

The void creator

If everything must have been created, then god must have been created as well. If god is not created, then everything mustn't have a creator, so why should life or cosmos have one?

God existed before creation. Creation is a concept that we use to categorize the world and universe around us. We conceptualize everything, and file it into little categories, and all of these categories fall under the titles Possible and Impossible. Can your mind fathom what was before creation? No, because it is a human mind, an imperfect mind; a fallible mind.

Besides this argument has another leap. If everything has a source and god is that source, then god must have existed without it before he created it. So if god created time and space, he must live outside of time and space. Thus he is non-existent. If all life must come from something and that is god, god is not alive and hence non-existent. If morality must come from god, god lacks morality. If logic comes from god, god is illogical. If nature comes from god, god is unnatural. If existence comes from god, god is non-existent. If god is the cause of everything, god is void

Yes, in our defintion of existence, God is non-existent. Because to be in existence, you must be in the realm of the natural universe, where time flows, and because time flows you can exist, as existence is defined as I stated above the fact or state of continued being. And by your assertions as well as my own one cannot continue being if they are outside of time, correct? So to your mind and my own, God is non-existent because He is outside of what we define as existing. God does not fall under the categories of our definitions of alive, moral, logical, or natural. Wouldn't you expect an omnipotent being to be above and more than these things and outside the limits of what we can fathom in our ever so limited state of being? Your arguments do not make sense to me, because God is outside of everything that you use to deny His existence.

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Even when I was a Christian I didn't think there was proof of God. I loved learning about religions and apologetics, but I found myself siding with the atheists fairly consistantly, and it got to the point where I believed there was no logical or scientific proof for God and there never would be. It was all about feeeeeling him. *cringes*

It is difficult, having not much more than faith. But it's what I've got, and the invisible God has given it to me. I know this is all just discussion, and I can't prove His existence to you beyond a reasonable doubt, but I still love the discussion! Thanks for responding!

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There simply is no proof of a higher power. If an individual strives hard enough to discover something that is not there, he will eventually convince himself that it is there. That is the only way for believers to have faith. They must delude themselves into believing that a god does exist. Rather sad, actually.

Or, and I don't mean this to be in any way derogatory, but maybe completely denying anything that does not have scientific proof, or is not subject to the scientific method, is not the best way to go? By now I know what your beliefs are, but I haven't been deluding myself at all, I rather think that those who put their trust in men are not as well off as they think they are. I cannot allow myself to believe that there is only the erring human race to put faith in.

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As for a deist kind of deity I cannot say, but to me all the gods of the books, scriptures, scrolls and whatnot are equal to every other character from other stories, they are fictional. I don't need to explain myself when I say that Gandalf don't exist, why should I have to do the same with Tor?
(Yeah, I know that this is most definitely not proof, but it's my two cents )

GANDALF DOESN'T EXIST!? lol

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None at all for or against God?

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I am just a Christian. No denomination at all. I simply believe in and try hard to live by what Gods Word says.

So you believe in adam and eve and Noahs flood and that witches exist?

Yep, yes, absolutely, and... yeah.

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I just want to see what proof you have for or against God. Not intending to turn this into a nasty debate, I just want to hear what you all have to say about the subject of the God that I believe in, from every religious view. If you would be so kind!

some people may explain their atheism differently, but I and certainly most other athists came to that conclusion because I dont believe in things which cannot be proven.

So the burden of proof is on you, and not me.

Well you and I both know that if I could prove to you beyond a reasonable doubt that God is real and that He loves us all, would I not have done so already? I see why it is difficult to believe in something that you can't prove unequivocally, but nevertheless, I will continue in my march! Ambiguity is definatly a hard thing to get around.