free will paradox

[fr0d0]

So sorry I'm late back onto this thread. I have no idea why I missed it. Maybe I was living or something. Who knows. Credit to missluckie26 anyway for pointing my mistake out.

And what does believing it do? To you it's wishful thinking, to me it's reality.

Believing something to be true because you have evidence for it being true is one thing, believing something to be true solely because you want it to be true is another. The latter is wishful thinking. Thus the call for your evidence.

In the absence of your producing any evidence, you leave me no choice but to conclude that it is wishful thinking.

With such thorough investigative talent I should wonder at your enlightenment

And do you realise how fallacious that request is?

Merriam-Webster gives two definitions for the word fallacious. The first, to embody a fallacy. The second, tending to mislead or deceive. Since you obviously mean the latter, I'd have to ask in what way it was either misleading or deceptive. Demonstrating the existence of your god — which was only one of two alternatives suggested — would certainly put tits on the bull. If accusing me of deception and being misleading is your way of shifting the blame for the inadequacy of your evidence or your argument, then I suggest you fuck off. That you have beliefs you can't adequately support is not my problem, and your implying that I'm being unethical by simply revealing that fact is thoroughly loathsome on your part.

Wrong choice

A God given ability, to state the taboo

(that means your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises, and therefore should neither be believed nor disbelieved).

Always.

But the point follows the reasoning.

God does explain it. That is his purpose, from our perspective. Call it anything you like, there are other ways of describing it. I remain open minded to finding another answer that is so complete.

Since there are (at least) two explanations which equally completely explain the phenomenon...

False

There are not 2 equal explanations. Other explanations fall very short.

The assumption has to be yours. The belief is mine. Address theology and you'll address the subject.

without evidence

Again, you haven't asked for it, or apparently want to hear it.

And again, that you believe something to be true is of little consequence if you don't have sound reasons for believing what you do.

And I do.

---

I was not a JH or a Mormon. I grew up bouncing cities, states, and Christian churches. I've been to methodists, baptists, lutherans, southern baptists, catholics (once), but for the most part my parents stuck with christian churches without such titles, based on the level of spirituality that the pastor had. That said, my parents did end up at some extreme churches when I was young that made them conclude not to stick to a particular denomination for good reason; one church ending in suicide after they left, another they left because the pastor boasted and propagated child molestation. We even went to Ted Haggards' church when he was hatin on the gays. From those experiences my father kept with him the extreme view on the bible, and to this day believes women should not own land or hold office and are the reason the country is going to hell in a hand basket along with the fact that gays, muslims, and removal of religion are also contributing to the the world going to hell. He absolutely cannot contain his excitement for the End of Times.
My mother on the other hand takes care of the purest innocent of humans on this planet for nothing in return, she's even too tired in her good works to go to church anymore.

Thanks. Interesting.

The perversion you describe has nothing to do with any faith that I subscribe to.

Honestly Fr0d0, it's getting kind of annoying this whole, "You speak not of my religion BS."

Honestly... I think your family, as you describe them, are less Christian than any of the atheists I've met here. These people are shining examples of virtue in comparison. Most of them also have a better understanding of the bible. And that's those that have never experienced it.

You might not like it, but it's demonstrably true.

What is within you is from God

I disagree.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/scienc...d=all&_r=0

Yeah that's secular morality. Proof of the God given bit.

Again, this is not Christianity. Anger isn't a sin. Ever heard of this one: "In your anger do not sin: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry" (Eph 4:26)
God is perfect. Perfect is God. It's the definition. You can bastardise that all you want, it doesn't alter the fact of the definition. There is no proof to the contrary.

It says in your anger don't sin. Not, if you're angry you're not sinning.

Basic 101. Jesus, in his anger, turned over the tables in anger. Anger isn't bad. Holding a grudge is bad.

"In your anger don't sin" ... in your innocent act (anger), don't sin (let that anger lead to what is bad - holding a grudge).

Where in the Bible does it say god is perfect? Just curious. Or in a dictionary under perfection, where there is god = perfection?

From a quick google:

Deuteronomy 32:4 The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.
Psalm 18:30 This God—his way is perfect; the word of the Lord proves true; he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
Matthew 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Here are verses that I see as directly contrasting gods' actions that are described by this one issue alone.

“I the Lord do not change” (Malachi 3:6a)

“You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell” (Psalm 5:4).

“When you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe” (1 Thessalonians 2:13b).

I'm sorry those seem to support what I'm saying

Can't you see that I see you as being hypocritical and illogical yourself? That god cannot be perfect if he commits imperfect acts and is a hypocrite for judging us to hell for qualities he himself has shown? Before you say the typical, who are you to judge god BS please take a minute to consider that I am not indeed here to slam your beliefs. I'm here to talk to you about your beliefs. I'm not here talking to you to debate you and have fun with the word war you're ensuing. I dislike it highly, actually. I'm literally here to find out what is keeping you faithful and why, and all you can do is tell me I'm perverse and bastardising your bible.

I see no argument from you. Just the empty and groundless accusations reapeated without support. I've discussed this many times with atheists over a few years now, and none come up with any rational objection.
God does not commit imperfect acts
God does not show imperfection

You're saying that positivity doesn't work in one breath, and then arguing it does in the next

Be a darling and point your position out for me please, in detail?
Also, please translate for me this statement: You're hung up on what is to you a taboo langueage. Get over it.

Taboo language: if I use religious dogma/ express it in the words of religion or theology, you throw the toys out of the pram. If we talk in non theological terms you will say the opposite, because you're hung up on the religious language.

I never mentioned any box, you did. You're projecting.

My bad I was quoting you from some of your past quotes. I like to see what the beliefs of someone I'm talking to are, and you have oh 450 some odd pages to thumb through (plus I just like reading the old debates!). Figured you'd recognize your own arguments. Here's one, of many..

http://atheistforums.org/thread-832-page-4.html
Kyuuketsuki Wrote: A lot of what world? The warped one you exist in or the one that I, as most science adherents, choose to believe (with reason) is inherently explainable and governed by physical laws that make sense? Thanks but no thanks ... I think I'll continue to inhabit the world of the rational.

Fr0d0 wrote:
It's nice and safe in that little box. Come back and see me when you're ready to come out and play in the real world.

Please use the quote function. I can then click back to your post and read the context.

Kyu is a materialist. He sees the world as only explainable by science. Almost violently so. that is what I referred to as his "box". It's a limitation and not an open minded perception of the world. Wilfully ignorant. A position of deep, unjustifiable faith.

Lets take my example of one of my "hells" of a bastardized perversion of your own beliefs that I'm projecting onto you, and if you can please explain to me how I am perverting your beliefs feel free to educate me. Seriously.

My mom and dad got married. Both believed in god. Both swore to god on this statement (yes I'm aware it's not from the bible).

I, (name), take you (name), to be my (wife/husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish; from this day forward until death do us part.), these can also be altered in many ways, or you can write your own vows

They meant it.

Let's assume my father perverted the bible because of his mental illness, then eventually loses his faith 20yrs later. There are still bible verses she must adhere to during those 20yrs in her love of god and love of her husband, and these few verses are what used as reasoning that prevented her from ending that "hell". Verses from a book that God claims is his will breathed to "living word".

1 Corinthians 7:39 ESV
A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

Mark 10:12 ESV
And if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

Malachi 2:14-16 God states "The Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously... 'For I hate divorce' says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'and him who covers his garment is wrong.'

1 Corinthians 7:15 ESV
But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace.

So what is your problem with any of that?