Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: November 28, 2024, 10:55 am

Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 4 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
On Non-belief
#2
RE: On Non-belief
(April 12, 2013 at 7:02 am)FallentoReason Wrote: This isn't an original argument by me, but rather an argument from a Youtuber whose video can be found in this thread: http://atheistforums.org/thread-18268.html

Thanks for sharing that with us median. I've watched more of his videos and I can't believe he does daytime TV instead of travel the world and debate with theists. Absolutely brilliant.

Anyways. He begins by explaining an observation of our universe: here we all are, debating about whether the Christian god exists or not which apparently is too shy to show himself. It seems rather strange that his existence isn't just an everyday fact but rather an "abstract truth" that isn't all that evident, especially when there's so many religions claiming that they're the ones worshipping the true god(s). This, he says, is the last thing we should expect from Bible god. The argument is as follows:

1) If God exists, he desires for us to know x is true, where x is the set of propositions we need to believe in so that we can be saved.
2) If God exists, he has the power to make us know x is true.
3) If God exists, and given (1) & (2), we should know x is true.
4) We do not know x is true.
C) Given (3) & (4), God does not exist.

He goes on to explain that free will doesn't come into this argument as an objection, because God giving us the knowledge that x is true wouldn't negate our free will. The Bible itself gives us plenty of instances where an agent knew God exists, but yet they chose to rebel. There were even agents in the direct presence of God, yet they chose to rebel e.g. Lucifer. So clearly, God making sure we knew x is true shouldn't be a problem at all, but yet we are plagued with people not knowing x is true.

good stuff

Free will doesn't exist. You brain makes choices. No matter what god does, it makes choices. God also understands that if he gave you the ability to chose, then some must, by the nature of how we seem to work, choose against him.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 12, 2013 at 7:02 am
RE: On Non-belief - by archangle - April 12, 2013 at 8:07 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 12, 2013 at 11:05 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 12, 2013 at 11:22 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 13, 2013 at 12:06 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 13, 2013 at 12:50 am
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 13, 2013 at 1:22 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 13, 2013 at 2:15 am
RE: On Non-belief - by archangle - April 12, 2013 at 11:53 am
Re: RE: On Non-belief - by frz - April 12, 2013 at 8:03 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by archangle - April 12, 2013 at 8:51 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 13, 2013 at 2:59 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 13, 2013 at 3:20 am
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 13, 2013 at 6:42 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 13, 2013 at 10:12 am
RE: On Non-belief - by catfish - April 13, 2013 at 5:15 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 13, 2013 at 4:23 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by catfish - April 13, 2013 at 5:14 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Mister Agenda - April 18, 2013 at 6:29 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by ebg - April 13, 2013 at 5:14 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 13, 2013 at 10:48 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 11:27 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 11:44 am
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 12:07 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 12:35 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 12:58 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 14, 2013 at 10:29 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 13, 2013 at 5:38 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 15, 2013 at 12:09 am
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 15, 2013 at 4:51 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 15, 2013 at 9:25 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Esquilax - April 15, 2013 at 7:31 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 15, 2013 at 9:31 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 15, 2013 at 9:36 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 15, 2013 at 8:25 am
RE: On Non-belief - by archangle - April 15, 2013 at 8:36 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Faith No More - April 15, 2013 at 8:59 am
RE: On Non-belief - by ebg - April 13, 2013 at 6:50 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Minimalist - April 13, 2013 at 11:40 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by ebg - April 14, 2013 at 12:18 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Minimalist - April 24, 2013 at 1:13 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Dragonetti - April 24, 2013 at 1:18 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 1:35 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 1:55 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 1:59 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 2:05 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 2:11 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 2:15 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 9:26 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 14, 2013 at 10:05 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 10:21 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 14, 2013 at 10:37 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 10:54 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 14, 2013 at 11:15 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 11:16 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 15, 2013 at 1:10 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 15, 2013 at 4:36 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 15, 2013 at 12:41 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 15, 2013 at 1:21 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by archangle - April 15, 2013 at 4:43 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Esquilax - April 15, 2013 at 1:47 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 15, 2013 at 4:49 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 15, 2013 at 4:57 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 15, 2013 at 6:12 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by catfish - April 15, 2013 at 6:16 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 15, 2013 at 7:04 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 15, 2013 at 11:18 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 16, 2013 at 1:10 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 18, 2013 at 4:08 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Drich - April 15, 2013 at 4:01 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 15, 2013 at 11:31 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 16, 2013 at 8:13 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Drich - April 16, 2013 at 1:10 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 15, 2013 at 6:25 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Jackalope - April 15, 2013 at 7:04 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by catfish - April 15, 2013 at 6:55 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tonus - April 15, 2013 at 7:09 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Whateverist - April 15, 2013 at 7:31 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 15, 2013 at 8:37 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 15, 2013 at 9:29 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 16, 2013 at 12:09 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 12:12 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 16, 2013 at 1:42 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 3:01 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 16, 2013 at 3:41 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 15, 2013 at 9:57 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 15, 2013 at 11:20 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 15, 2013 at 10:19 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 16, 2013 at 3:04 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 3:19 am
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 16, 2013 at 7:31 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 8:30 am
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 16, 2013 at 7:18 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 10:01 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 18, 2013 at 2:59 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 18, 2013 at 9:17 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 19, 2013 at 2:51 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 16, 2013 at 10:49 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 10:55 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 17, 2013 at 5:40 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 16, 2013 at 1:38 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 16, 2013 at 3:26 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Darkstar - April 16, 2013 at 3:28 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 17, 2013 at 12:54 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Esquilax - April 17, 2013 at 12:58 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 17, 2013 at 2:00 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Esquilax - April 18, 2013 at 12:55 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Fidel_Castronaut - April 17, 2013 at 1:28 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by CleanShavenJesus - April 17, 2013 at 5:44 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 17, 2013 at 9:35 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Brayton.l - April 17, 2013 at 9:44 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 17, 2013 at 11:44 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 18, 2013 at 1:31 am
RE: On Non-belief - by CleanShavenJesus - April 18, 2013 at 5:41 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by CleanShavenJesus - April 17, 2013 at 9:55 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by CleanShavenJesus - April 16, 2013 at 3:50 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Fidel_Castronaut - April 16, 2013 at 6:51 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 18, 2013 at 12:03 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 18, 2013 at 2:43 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 18, 2013 at 3:40 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 18, 2013 at 9:46 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 18, 2013 at 10:08 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 19, 2013 at 4:51 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 19, 2013 at 4:26 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by ThomM - April 19, 2013 at 6:02 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 18, 2013 at 10:38 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Fidel_Castronaut - April 19, 2013 at 2:15 am
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 19, 2013 at 5:57 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 19, 2013 at 7:25 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Simon Moon - April 19, 2013 at 7:41 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 19, 2013 at 8:56 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 20, 2013 at 2:10 am
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 20, 2013 at 3:31 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Esquilax - April 20, 2013 at 2:45 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 19, 2013 at 7:31 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 20, 2013 at 9:22 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by ThomM - April 21, 2013 at 1:25 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 23, 2013 at 11:42 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 24, 2013 at 12:58 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 24, 2013 at 6:37 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by The Grand Nudger - April 24, 2013 at 8:27 am
RE: On Non-belief - by The Grand Nudger - April 24, 2013 at 6:39 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  What seems to be the latest claim about end times belief Vintagesilverscreen 6 781 June 28, 2024 at 6:47 pm
Last Post: Prycejosh1987
  Where does the belief that seeds die before they turn into a living plant come from? FlatAssembler 17 1894 August 3, 2023 at 10:38 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Man claims to hunt non-binaries Ferrocyanide 10 1623 April 6, 2022 at 8:47 am
Last Post: onlinebiker
  Why not dismiss the trinitarian belief outright R00tKiT 80 9823 August 13, 2021 at 3:51 pm
Last Post: Spongebob
  Belief Catharsis 57 6079 March 24, 2019 at 9:54 am
Last Post: Shell B
  [Serious] fact finding mission for non-Christians tackattack 52 5986 March 7, 2019 at 7:31 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Is there another motivation for christian belief? brewer 118 22120 September 23, 2016 at 1:02 pm
Last Post: TubbyTubby
  My view of theism - theism analogous to belief in extra terrestrials joseph_ 4 1467 August 30, 2016 at 4:20 am
Last Post: Jarrey
  What do non-fundamentalist Christians actually believe? Fromper 66 27096 June 30, 2016 at 7:08 pm
Last Post: vorlon13
  I don't do "lack of belief", bitch. Silver 35 7166 March 21, 2016 at 9:12 pm
Last Post: Panatheist



Users browsing this thread: 14 Guest(s)