Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: July 30, 2025, 7:26 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 4 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
On Non-belief
#7
RE: On Non-belief
(April 12, 2013 at 11:05 am)ChadWooters Wrote: Remember to distinguish between general revelation and special revelation. The everyday fact of a divine aspect to reality seems to be ‘properly basic’ as MysticKnight would say. Some form of divinity is intuitively obvious, even if later application of reason, forces you to conclude that your intuition was incorrect. Meanwhile the application of reason may force others, like myself, to conclude that the original intuition was sound. Proceeding from there relies on the special revelation particular to each religious tradition – if Christian, the bible; if Hindu, the Vedas; etc.

It seems like you have a problem with premise 4? This argument doesn't account for a Deistic god, so I'll meet you half way when you say the divine aspect of reality could be properly basic. This by no means implies that such an entity decided to reveal itself, thus making the entity Theistic in nature. This is where I stand; I believe it is a non-sequitur to say a) "GOD" exists therefore b) Christianity is true. There's a whole lot of work ahead of you to get to (b), which is actually the point of the argument: the fact that it is not obvious that the claims of Christianity are the true ones.

Quote:The argument presented refutes the idea of ‘orthodoxy’ in the sense that salvation depends on having the right thoughts or holding a certain set of facts to be true. This would apply to the Reformed doctrine of ‘Faith Alone’. Are thoughts, by themselves, meritorious? The Catholic and Orthodox churches do not think so, nor does Swedenborg (who would have guessed!)

Thought, and the knowledge of truths that come from it, allows us to love more effectively and to do good. Truth plays a supporting role to love. Love alone is meritorious.

Okay. So I’m a Christian and I believe the special revelation of the bible is true, or at least a better approximation of the truth than say the Vedas. By definition, if I read something in the Vedas that contradicted the bible I would call it a false teaching. Closer to home, I think the New Church interpretation of the bible is more accurate than that of say Southern Baptists. So I would call those false teachings as well. That does not mean that a false teaching is necessarily harmful if it does not prevent the believer from cultivating love within themselves and acting out that love. Drich, Godschild, Frodo, and I all love the Lord. I would like to believe that we all live our lives in conformity to that love, despite our doctrinal differences. I’m quite certain that when we meet together in heaven we’ll all have a good laugh about how wrong each of us was.

I don't think you ever explicitly stated it here, but are you saying that believing in x is not a sufficient nor even a necessary condition to salvation? In other words, is it true that someone who is not a Christian (i.e. they don't believe x to be true, where x is arguably the fundamental teachings of Christianity such as Jesus dying for your sins) can get to heaven? If this is what you're saying, then I believe it raises more problems than answers, but I'll let you answer this first.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
Reply



Messages In This Thread
On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 12, 2013 at 7:02 am
RE: On Non-belief - by archangle - April 12, 2013 at 8:07 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 12, 2013 at 11:05 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 12, 2013 at 11:22 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 13, 2013 at 12:06 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 13, 2013 at 12:50 am
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 13, 2013 at 1:22 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 13, 2013 at 2:15 am
RE: On Non-belief - by archangle - April 12, 2013 at 11:53 am
Re: RE: On Non-belief - by frz - April 12, 2013 at 8:03 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by archangle - April 12, 2013 at 8:51 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 13, 2013 at 2:59 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 13, 2013 at 3:20 am
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 13, 2013 at 6:42 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 13, 2013 at 10:12 am
RE: On Non-belief - by catfish - April 13, 2013 at 5:15 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 13, 2013 at 4:23 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by catfish - April 13, 2013 at 5:14 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Mister Agenda - April 18, 2013 at 6:29 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by ebg - April 13, 2013 at 5:14 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 13, 2013 at 10:48 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 11:27 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 11:44 am
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 12:07 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 12:35 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 12:58 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 14, 2013 at 10:29 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 13, 2013 at 5:38 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 15, 2013 at 12:09 am
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 15, 2013 at 4:51 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 15, 2013 at 9:25 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Esquilax - April 15, 2013 at 7:31 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 15, 2013 at 9:31 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 15, 2013 at 9:36 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 15, 2013 at 8:25 am
RE: On Non-belief - by archangle - April 15, 2013 at 8:36 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Faith No More - April 15, 2013 at 8:59 am
RE: On Non-belief - by ebg - April 13, 2013 at 6:50 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Minimalist - April 13, 2013 at 11:40 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by ebg - April 14, 2013 at 12:18 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Minimalist - April 24, 2013 at 1:13 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Dragonetti - April 24, 2013 at 1:18 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 1:35 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 1:55 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 1:59 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 2:05 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 2:11 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 2:15 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 9:26 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 14, 2013 at 10:05 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 10:21 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 14, 2013 at 10:37 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 10:54 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 14, 2013 at 11:15 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 11:16 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 15, 2013 at 1:10 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 15, 2013 at 4:36 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 15, 2013 at 12:41 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 15, 2013 at 1:21 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by archangle - April 15, 2013 at 4:43 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Esquilax - April 15, 2013 at 1:47 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 15, 2013 at 4:49 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 15, 2013 at 4:57 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 15, 2013 at 6:12 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by catfish - April 15, 2013 at 6:16 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 15, 2013 at 7:04 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 15, 2013 at 11:18 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 16, 2013 at 1:10 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 18, 2013 at 4:08 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Drich - April 15, 2013 at 4:01 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 15, 2013 at 11:31 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 16, 2013 at 8:13 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Drich - April 16, 2013 at 1:10 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 15, 2013 at 6:25 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Jackalope - April 15, 2013 at 7:04 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by catfish - April 15, 2013 at 6:55 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tonus - April 15, 2013 at 7:09 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Whateverist - April 15, 2013 at 7:31 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 15, 2013 at 8:37 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 15, 2013 at 9:29 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 16, 2013 at 12:09 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 12:12 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 16, 2013 at 1:42 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 3:01 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 16, 2013 at 3:41 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 15, 2013 at 9:57 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 15, 2013 at 11:20 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 15, 2013 at 10:19 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 16, 2013 at 3:04 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 3:19 am
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 16, 2013 at 7:31 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 8:30 am
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 16, 2013 at 7:18 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 10:01 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 18, 2013 at 2:59 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 18, 2013 at 9:17 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 19, 2013 at 2:51 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 16, 2013 at 10:49 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 10:55 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 17, 2013 at 5:40 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 16, 2013 at 1:38 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 16, 2013 at 3:26 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Darkstar - April 16, 2013 at 3:28 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 17, 2013 at 12:54 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Esquilax - April 17, 2013 at 12:58 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 17, 2013 at 2:00 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Esquilax - April 18, 2013 at 12:55 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Fidel_Castronaut - April 17, 2013 at 1:28 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by CleanShavenJesus - April 17, 2013 at 5:44 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 17, 2013 at 9:35 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Brayton.l - April 17, 2013 at 9:44 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 17, 2013 at 11:44 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 18, 2013 at 1:31 am
RE: On Non-belief - by CleanShavenJesus - April 18, 2013 at 5:41 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by CleanShavenJesus - April 17, 2013 at 9:55 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by CleanShavenJesus - April 16, 2013 at 3:50 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Fidel_Castronaut - April 16, 2013 at 6:51 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 18, 2013 at 12:03 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 18, 2013 at 2:43 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 18, 2013 at 3:40 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 18, 2013 at 9:46 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 18, 2013 at 10:08 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 19, 2013 at 4:51 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 19, 2013 at 4:26 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by ThomM - April 19, 2013 at 6:02 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 18, 2013 at 10:38 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Fidel_Castronaut - April 19, 2013 at 2:15 am
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 19, 2013 at 5:57 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 19, 2013 at 7:25 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Simon Moon - April 19, 2013 at 7:41 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 19, 2013 at 8:56 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 20, 2013 at 2:10 am
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 20, 2013 at 3:31 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Esquilax - April 20, 2013 at 2:45 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 19, 2013 at 7:31 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 20, 2013 at 9:22 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by ThomM - April 21, 2013 at 1:25 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 23, 2013 at 11:42 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 24, 2013 at 12:58 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 24, 2013 at 6:37 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by The Grand Nudger - April 24, 2013 at 8:27 am
RE: On Non-belief - by The Grand Nudger - April 24, 2013 at 6:39 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  What seems to be the latest claim about end times belief Vintagesilverscreen 6 1819 June 28, 2024 at 6:47 pm
Last Post: Prycejosh1987
  Where does the belief that seeds die before they turn into a living plant come from? FlatAssembler 17 2692 August 3, 2023 at 10:38 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Man claims to hunt non-binaries Ferrocyanide 10 1998 April 6, 2022 at 8:47 am
Last Post: onlinebiker
  Why not dismiss the trinitarian belief outright R00tKiT 80 13316 August 13, 2021 at 3:51 pm
Last Post: Spongebob
  Belief Catharsis 57 8711 March 24, 2019 at 9:54 am
Last Post: Shell B
  [Serious] fact finding mission for non-Christians tackattack 52 8007 March 7, 2019 at 7:31 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Is there another motivation for christian belief? brewer 118 26967 September 23, 2016 at 1:02 pm
Last Post: TubbyTubby
  My view of theism - theism analogous to belief in extra terrestrials joseph_ 4 1669 August 30, 2016 at 4:20 am
Last Post: Jarrey
  What do non-fundamentalist Christians actually believe? Fromper 66 29570 June 30, 2016 at 7:08 pm
Last Post: vorlon13
  I don't do "lack of belief", bitch. Silver 35 8236 March 21, 2016 at 9:12 pm
Last Post: Panatheist



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)