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On Non-belief
#26
RE: On Non-belief
(April 14, 2013 at 11:27 am)John V Wrote:
(April 13, 2013 at 10:48 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: I use "believe" in the sense that if you asked someone (say, a Christian) "do you think x is true?" and they say "yes", then they believe x to be true.

How does knowledge of x prevent salvation?? I don't understand.
With this sense of "believe" that argument isn't applicable. The problem with the argument is then that, well, lots of people do believe.

The argument is called "...from non-belief" for a reason... you might have to refresh your memory and re-read the OP.

Quote:The "us" in point 1 is undefined, but seems to indicate every person. But, that hasn't been demonstrated Biblically. There are plenty of passages that show that god doesn't expect everyone to be saved, so there's no reason to expect him to ensure that every person accepts his truth, whether or not that is possible. See Romans 9, and recall Jesus' parables of the broad and narrow paths, and of the sower.

It really says something about his apparent omnibenevolence then, doesn't it? You'll have to concede that he's not all-loving or that he doesn't exist (as per the OP) if he really is all-loving and wishes for every human to be able to go to heaven.

John V Wrote:
Quote:God is supposed to be omniscient. He knows exactly how to do it so that we can't deny x to be true.
That presumes that there is a way that can't be denied, a point which hasn't been proven.

I'm not required to prove it or show what this way is. God, being omniscient, already knows this way. If by "proven" you really mean to say it needs to be shown that it's something possible, then by definition it must be possible, because God in his omnipotence would find it possible, unless he isn't omnipotent. These two attributes he has means there is a *possible way*, unless of course you want to concede that he doesn't have one or both attributes.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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Messages In This Thread
On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 12, 2013 at 7:02 am
RE: On Non-belief - by archangle - April 12, 2013 at 8:07 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 12, 2013 at 11:05 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 12, 2013 at 11:22 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 13, 2013 at 12:06 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 13, 2013 at 12:50 am
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 13, 2013 at 1:22 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 13, 2013 at 2:15 am
RE: On Non-belief - by archangle - April 12, 2013 at 11:53 am
Re: RE: On Non-belief - by frz - April 12, 2013 at 8:03 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by archangle - April 12, 2013 at 8:51 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 13, 2013 at 2:59 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 13, 2013 at 3:20 am
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 13, 2013 at 6:42 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 13, 2013 at 10:12 am
RE: On Non-belief - by catfish - April 13, 2013 at 5:15 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 13, 2013 at 4:23 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by catfish - April 13, 2013 at 5:14 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Mister Agenda - April 18, 2013 at 6:29 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by ebg - April 13, 2013 at 5:14 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 13, 2013 at 10:48 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 11:27 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 11:44 am
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 12:07 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 12:35 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 12:58 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 14, 2013 at 10:29 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 13, 2013 at 5:38 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 15, 2013 at 12:09 am
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 15, 2013 at 4:51 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 15, 2013 at 9:25 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Esquilax - April 15, 2013 at 7:31 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 15, 2013 at 9:31 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 15, 2013 at 9:36 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 15, 2013 at 8:25 am
RE: On Non-belief - by archangle - April 15, 2013 at 8:36 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Faith No More - April 15, 2013 at 8:59 am
RE: On Non-belief - by ebg - April 13, 2013 at 6:50 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Minimalist - April 13, 2013 at 11:40 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by ebg - April 14, 2013 at 12:18 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Minimalist - April 24, 2013 at 1:13 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Dragonetti - April 24, 2013 at 1:18 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 1:35 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 1:55 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 1:59 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 2:05 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 2:11 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by John V - April 14, 2013 at 2:15 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 9:26 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 14, 2013 at 10:05 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 10:21 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 14, 2013 at 10:37 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 10:54 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 14, 2013 at 11:15 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 14, 2013 at 11:16 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 15, 2013 at 1:10 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 15, 2013 at 4:36 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 15, 2013 at 12:41 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 15, 2013 at 1:21 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by archangle - April 15, 2013 at 4:43 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Esquilax - April 15, 2013 at 1:47 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 15, 2013 at 4:49 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 15, 2013 at 4:57 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 15, 2013 at 6:12 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by catfish - April 15, 2013 at 6:16 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 15, 2013 at 7:04 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 15, 2013 at 11:18 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 16, 2013 at 1:10 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 18, 2013 at 4:08 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Drich - April 15, 2013 at 4:01 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 15, 2013 at 11:31 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 16, 2013 at 8:13 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Drich - April 16, 2013 at 1:10 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 15, 2013 at 6:25 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Jackalope - April 15, 2013 at 7:04 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by catfish - April 15, 2013 at 6:55 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tonus - April 15, 2013 at 7:09 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Whateverist - April 15, 2013 at 7:31 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 15, 2013 at 8:37 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 15, 2013 at 9:29 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 16, 2013 at 12:09 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 12:12 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 16, 2013 at 1:42 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 3:01 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 16, 2013 at 3:41 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Neo-Scholastic - April 15, 2013 at 9:57 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 15, 2013 at 11:20 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 15, 2013 at 10:19 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 16, 2013 at 3:04 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 3:19 am
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 16, 2013 at 7:31 am
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 8:30 am
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 16, 2013 at 7:18 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 10:01 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 18, 2013 at 2:59 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 18, 2013 at 9:17 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 19, 2013 at 2:51 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 16, 2013 at 10:49 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 16, 2013 at 10:55 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Godschild - April 17, 2013 at 5:40 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 16, 2013 at 1:38 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 16, 2013 at 3:26 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Darkstar - April 16, 2013 at 3:28 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 17, 2013 at 12:54 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Esquilax - April 17, 2013 at 12:58 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 17, 2013 at 2:00 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Esquilax - April 18, 2013 at 12:55 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Fidel_Castronaut - April 17, 2013 at 1:28 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by CleanShavenJesus - April 17, 2013 at 5:44 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 17, 2013 at 9:35 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Brayton.l - April 17, 2013 at 9:44 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 17, 2013 at 11:44 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 18, 2013 at 1:31 am
RE: On Non-belief - by CleanShavenJesus - April 18, 2013 at 5:41 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by CleanShavenJesus - April 17, 2013 at 9:55 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by CleanShavenJesus - April 16, 2013 at 3:50 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Fidel_Castronaut - April 16, 2013 at 6:51 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 18, 2013 at 12:03 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 18, 2013 at 2:43 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 18, 2013 at 3:40 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 18, 2013 at 9:46 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by FallentoReason - April 18, 2013 at 10:08 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 19, 2013 at 4:51 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 19, 2013 at 4:26 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by ThomM - April 19, 2013 at 6:02 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 18, 2013 at 10:38 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Fidel_Castronaut - April 19, 2013 at 2:15 am
RE: On Non-belief - by pocaracas - April 19, 2013 at 5:57 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 19, 2013 at 7:25 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Simon Moon - April 19, 2013 at 7:41 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 19, 2013 at 8:56 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 20, 2013 at 2:10 am
RE: On Non-belief - by fr0d0 - April 20, 2013 at 3:31 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Esquilax - April 20, 2013 at 2:45 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 19, 2013 at 7:31 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 20, 2013 at 9:22 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by ThomM - April 21, 2013 at 1:25 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 23, 2013 at 11:42 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by Ryantology - April 24, 2013 at 12:58 am
RE: On Non-belief - by Tex - April 24, 2013 at 6:37 pm
RE: On Non-belief - by The Grand Nudger - April 24, 2013 at 8:27 am
RE: On Non-belief - by The Grand Nudger - April 24, 2013 at 6:39 pm

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