free will paradox

[Mystical]

There is no knowledge imparted anywhere whatsoever on this forum or anywhere else that I have found that even begins to refute what I believe. I'm still searching, and if you find anything let me know and I'll check it out.

Well of course I'd love to help you out with that, but you see you don't state why the points made on this forum aren't valid to you.. Like you have some big secret you won't impart on all of us. But in the end, fr0d0, it's your binding to faith that keeps you where you're at. Your fear that without it, hopelessness prevails and darkness reigns, and you're afraid of where you're morality will be based because of your past. I'd say let go of your past, and realize who you are now is far more pertinent, but then..You don't want to hear what I have to say do you? You don't give me any benefit of doubt whatsoever, really. And I don't doubt that anything presented to you will be falsified and a version of bastardization to you. I'm just talking to talk at this point, aren't I? Or are you not hopeless?

I'm not fighting you here on that fr0d0, believe what you want, so long as it's true. Just don't tell me I'm going to hell like Godschild does, that's rude. And for gods sakes educate your children unlike that I received. Evolution is real. It is. No question, anymore. Prayer was not taken out of schools: it was just limited from being enforced by those in authority. Don't vote in assholes who let their religious dogma dictate how they legislate eVeryone's lives. Teach those kids how to use their own brains, hmmm? To look at both sides of the story not just one.

Future hell is of little interest to me. I'm interested in now, and what stops me from functioning. I guess you are too. Hate preaching = anti Christ. From what I've seen of GodsChild I don't think he/she's guilty of that. Are we talking hatred of dogma here? Is it the words you object to? I guess from you're history that you'd have a lot of baggage attached to the dogma, which GodsChild and I wouldn't recognise.

I don't know where you get the word hate from anywhere in my quote fr0d0. Hatred of dogma? I don't hate your religion, I dislike the inevitable conclusions that get drawn from the words in your bible, and the social implications of the bias it teaches. I think you've seen me say things like, "Fuck god," and such which is really me breaking free from the suppressive thoughts I'd been taught my entire life.
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Evolution is real. Absolutely. No question. Nothing anti Christian about that.

I thought you believed in Adam and Eve though?

Prayer cannot be enforced. Belief is not belief if it's forced/ Choice cannot be choice if there is no choice. Belief in God cannot be a choice if you're not given the choice to believe or not.

The act of prayer can be imposed, fr0d0. Even I remember as a kid sitting in the auditorium during a mandatory pep rally, with all of my schools' heads bowed at the cusp of a V.I.P. basketball game, wondering just what those goth kids must be thinking at this point?

Let children use their own brains. Don't brainwash them with any biggotted information... atheist, Christian, whatever. Let them think for themselves.

You know, when I do have children fr0d0, fiction will be fiction and fact will be fact. I highly doubt they'd decide that the Bible was anything worth fighting for or dying for, since I will let them make their own minds up on things.
I live with my niece, who said to me the other night, "I pray my prayer every night "as I lay me down to sleep, I pray my lord my soul to keep, if I should die before I wake, I pray my lord my soul to take."
As fucked up as it was for me to hear a seven year old say that, I didn't say anything to refute her beliefs. I actually told her she could just talk to god during her prayers, and tell him what's on her mind or what's troubling her. Not because I believe she should be talking to nothingness, but because if she's going to talk to nothingness she might as well work out her life problems while she's at it and not focus on death.

Why must there be justice you say? The cause of wars is the need to redress balance > enact justice. With christianity (I only speak for my own faith) there is a solution to redress balance and stop wars: that only God can be fully just. That God enacts justice posthumously.

You're right fr0d0, justice is not found on this earth. Pure justice is beyond humanities' capabilities right now for the mere fact that we let our emotions and beliefs dictate our balance of true justice. Humans lie, cheat, and do a million other things that thwart justice. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't seek it, and it doesn't mean it's impossible to overcome them because humans can also be honest, true, and way smarter than those who are not.
Read any history book and you'll see that any form of religion has proved to be the ultimate injustice, and so rooted in people's psyche that they cannot allow their decisions to be neutrally beneficial for all of mankind, with it rooted in their world-view.
I don't believe you're wrong in your beliefs, fr0d0. I think you're limited by them and you limit the world around you, so naturally I want you freed of that. You on the other hand, believe I'm going to hell.

Now leaving that behind: you have reason for wars and suffering. you have people abusing power, abusing religion to that end, and bringing suffering to us all.

Lets reword that correctly, you have no reason for wars, you just have mainly religious people abusing power and abusing other people to that end, bringing suffering to us all.

Without forgiveness. Without what our civilisation calls "civilised": from (derived and justified though) our Christian heritage, you have utter hopelessness.

Surely I'm not the first person to ask you what justice was considered to be, before Christian god came on the scene?There’s never been a fixed standard for decent behavior. It varies over time and from one culture to another, and assuming you believe in evolution as you do: well then you must realize that religion is based on morality and morality has its' root in social structure and instincts.

Next, Consider rules you make for children. If the reason for them is understood at some point, the children no longer need them. Like, "Stay away from the pool." When the kids become old enough (Conscious enough) to realize that they can fall in and not get out, and that it's highly unpleasant to get water in their nose and mouth--then they'll get wise, and the rules become unnecessary to them.
They didn't need you to tell them that god doesn't want them near the pool, to realize that naturally it can be harmful for them and the reason for the rule is no longer needed because they learned the lesson.

Elanor Roosevelt: "When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it?"

You were subject to crazy, self defeating and therefore absolutely anti God beliefs. Yes I would imagine that a neutral view is far healthier for you. It is clearly inferior to a world view that makes peace rationally justifiable.

In your definition of anti-god: then you really must be one of the only Christians who aren't anti god.

Hello Everyone,

Please pray for me. I have been attacked by evil entities a few days go (I am not joking, a priest at a local Benedictine Monastery agreed with me) after I told him about strange sightings and noises in my room, and also about something unseen which physically attacked me. Over the last year I have been struggling with one sin, and I believe that this struggle and the events that happened a few days ago are related.

I fell into this sin again (after being constantly tempted for 11 hours). I intend to confess this to the same priest at the monastery on saturday, at 3 pm. He is the only priest within a 21 mile radius of my area, who will be available (he has an office, and sees people from 3-5 pm, and hundreds of people line up to see him).

Please pray that I get an oppurtunity to confess to him on saturday around 3pm, and also that I be safe and in faith until then.

Thank you,
Kieron

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answer:

Pray this as I pray with you.....

In our fight against the forces of Satan, help us O Lord Jesus.
Lord Jesus, we trust in you.

In our fight against the forces of Satan, help us O Lord Jesus.
Lord Jesus, we trust in you.

In our fight against the forces of Satan, help us O Lord Jesus.
Lord Jesus, we trust in you.

In our fight against the forces of Satan, help us O Lord Jesus.
Lord Jesus, we trust in you.

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Frodo: Tell me how I misinterpreted these verses in any way, in giving my full faith both physically, mentally, and 'spiritually', to him with the faith that he would answer my prayers?

Luke 11:5-13
And I say to you, Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.

10 For every one that asketh, receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.

11 And which of you, if he ask his father bread, will he give him a stone? or a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he reach him a scorpion?

Mark 11:22-24 (Douay Rheims)

22 And Jesus answering, saith to them: Have the faith of God.

23 Amen I say to you, that whosoever shall say to this mountain, Be thou removed and be cast into the sea, and shall not stagger in his heart, but believe, that whatsoever he saith shall be done; it shall be done unto him.

24 Therefore I say unto you, all things, whatsoever you ask when ye pray, believe that you shall receive; and they shall come unto you.
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Re: Victim Souls
If you are a victim soul, that is usually something that is revealed to you. It is not something that you necessarily seek out, or plan to become. All of us in the human condition have a life of woes. Jesus told us so, and this is reason to rejoice that He has sacrificed His own flesh for our salvation. Yet, if you are a baptized Christian, you are part of Christ's mystical body and so, may offer your suffering up to Him for eternal good - just as He offered Himself to the Father for our sake. Think of someone much worse off than yourself, and offer your suffering on their behalf. Many choose those who have various illnesses, or the holy souls suffering in purgatory. Just know that, the more you go outside of yourself, the more purpose there will be to your life, and the happier you will become.

_VanWa, I don't think we should put labels on what you are feeling. Just ask yourself if, in taking on the suffering of others (known or unknown, loved or not), you believe you are helping in their salvation. When you suffer, you are joining in the Passion of Christ. Years and years ago, when I was in school, the nuns always spoke of "offering it up". It is only now that I am beginning to understand what they meant. Try reading the Diary of St. Faustina. If we believe in labels, then yes, she was a "victim soul". She suffered very, very much in her life, both physically and spiritually, but her job was to promote the Lord's Divine Mercy, which she did then, and still does in heaven. St. Faustina was constantly asking Jesus to let her suffer so that souls would obtain His Mercy. Jesus let her know that many were saved because of her prayers and offerings. As a result, her life was filled with joy because she fulfilled God's divine will. Personally, I feel that joining your pain with that of Jesus to save souls is exceedingly virtuous, and is a result of a very special grace given to you from the Father. Listen to that interior voice.
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Public Poll:

1. It is human fault that has brought suffering into the world.

Agree, although behind that is the devil.

2. God uses everything, even suffering, to call people back to God.
God uses everything, even suffering, to call people back to God. Agree


3. Jesus was sent to Earth to absorb the sins of humans and therefore free from sin those who accepted his divinity.
Agree

4. The consequences of suffering from the original sin by Adam and Eve have been passed down to humankind.
Agree

5. Evil and suffering allows room for spiritual growth and development.
agree, but it also can lead to bitterness and resentment.

6. A life filled with suffering is useful if it causes the person to turn to God and accept divine grace.
agreee

7. Evil is the absence of good and not the existence of bad.
Strongly disagree - Evil involves deliberate intelligence and will - it is not simply the absence of good.

8. By having faith in God, one will find inner peace that will overshadow the evil in the world
Agree, but it's hard to find. I'd use "may find inner peace".

9. Evil is only a temptation
- Strongly disagree - Evil is an intention to destroy another - temptation is simply the entry door for us to act in an evil way.

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On the majority of souls going to hell:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, impurity, immodesty, luxury, idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, acts of selfishness, dissensions, sects, envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.'

Galatians 5:19-21

'The greater part of men choose to be damned rather than to love Almighty God.'

'Christ's flock is called "little" (Luke 12:32) in comparison with the greater number of the reprobates.'

St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church

'Notwithstanding assurances that God did not create any man for Hell, and that He wishes all men to be saved, it remains equally true that only few will be saved; that only few will go to Heaven; and that the greater part of mankind will be lost forever.'

We can rest certain that everyone who goes to Hell truly deserves to go there.

Therefore, if we are among those who go to Heaven, we will be perfectly content, no matter who did not go to Heaven whom we knew, however close to us. All the tears will be wiped from our eyes. We will embrace God's will. We should strive to embrace God's will in this life.

All the good that was in a person who goes to Hell was from God, not the person truly. And now that person is all evil, forever, and and punished for it, and this is truly justice, which is a good.

These days there's especially a temptation to make sentiment our religion. So that however we feel must be what the truth is. But that is not how the truth is determined. If we tell people what makes them happy, rather than what is true, we have made a serious mistake, and this is a very great problem in apologetics.

We must try to console people's feelings and lead them to feeling correctly about matters, but we must not do so at the expense of the truth. What is true is what makes us truly happy overall in the end, though we cannot see all that is behind it, we trust in God.

In conclusion, I'm not the only Christian out there that believed this shit Fr0d0.

By what logic are you saying that theism should be wiped out "one theist at a time"? Suddenly you appear to be a bigot.

How did I say theism should be wiped out one theist at a time? I said hope lies in the future starting with one theist (deconversion) at a time. Your interpretation of this as being anything other than what it is, labels you not me.

2. I ask because unlike you many do believe Christ is coming, and they live their lives like tomorrow he may come. So they don't prepare for the future, they live for just today. Again, you may not care when or watch the world's goings on like the it's the End of Times, but many do. And I did grow up praying every night that Jesus come release us from the torment of this earth. It's depressive, and it made me unhappy.

What you are saying those people are doing there is anti Christ and anti God. This is quite clear. I wish you could see that.

Here's a good roundabout of the reasonings that lead me to live life not for myself, to love others more than myself, to give everything of myself, and to want nothing for myself. How was I an anti-Christian, fr0d0?

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Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

This verse provides the primary key to how to be unified: We must sacrifice ourselves for one another. Sacrifice is the essence of godly love. If we are not willing to sacrifice, we are not showing love. It is as plain as that. The attitude of godly love—being willing to sacrifice—must be the underlying attitude as we interact with each other. "Service" is the last word in the verse, and sacrifice is our reasonable, logical, rational, spiritual service. It is the way we minister to one another and exhibit godly love.
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuse...seID/28247

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 16:24-25
He tells us to deny ourselves. This means we must disown and renounce ourselves and subjugate everything—all our works, interests, and enjoyments—to the standards set by God. Paul commands us to bring under our control every thought that opposes God and His way (II Corinthians 10:5).

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

Philippians 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

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The evil is being proliferated by people going against what the bible and theism states. Wether in the name of theism or atheism, or anything in between.

Moving towards a future without hope is not my idea of a good idea. You might think so but I don't think you've considered any alternative. How does a world without justice ever come to terms with that and live peacefully together? How do you stop human nature? I see no answers from you.

Human nature cannot be stopped. The world cannot be perfect, nor is justice truly even possible. We can only try to do our best to make life the best. How is this not an answer to you when it's the same thoughts of your bible? I propose that without religion, that is the best way to attain peace between men. Religion has had many, many faces and many many wrongs committed in its' name. Without leaving that thinking we cannot move forward because in essence, anyone with religion holds automatic grudges (or bias).

Yeah... you aren't talking about a past good here. You're talking about a past lived anti God.

I don't think you want to admit that I read the same damn book you did, and lived a life slightly more literal than you did. Plain and simple.

Of course we can all self-impose hells upon ourselves, it's a human right and quite typically is caused by external influences and traumatic experiences.

No. It's quite typically self imposed.

Is that not what I said? I feel like I'm speaking to an empty theatre. We self impose hells. But why do we do that??? CAUSED BY EXTERNAL INFLUENCES AND TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCES.
What's the discourse here? I'm confused as to why you're even arguing me on this, besides the mere fact that you must disagree with everything I say because I am so "anti Christ".

The difference is: and pay attention--when I now think about the iniquities done upon me by men: I don't live life with a burning flame of hope and satisfaction that justice will be served upon them in death by the all mighty god.

And you think this is pro Christ?!? Wow.

"The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men . . . " (Romans 1:18)

Does this verse not vindicate you in your heart? If you lost someone you loved to anothers' hand, would you not hold these words dear in order to drop your anger and hatred for that person? In your religion, one must give god the responsibility for the justification of wrongs, in order to 'heal' and forgive.

I don't get horrifically upset when I see similar issues go on around me, I have the strength to fight for the victims of those situations rather than cowering behind the belief that god is greater than me.

The love of Christ in you inspired you to neglect your fellow man. And this is pro Christ?? Wow

No. I was made weak and helpless, in my faith that some non-existent being would take care of the matters in his own way, not of this earth.

I'm now saved from opting to disregard the current state of things under the blanket belief that what is, is and will always be.

Your love of christ and justive lead you to leave the world to it's evil ways? Wow.

No, my bible lead me to believe I'm fighting a losing battle no matter what against a force I can never overcome, and that I should put my trust in god allmighty and follow him, and he'd show me the way to go. I gave up my will for his will. Problem is, he has no will; he doesn't exist.

There's no unwinnable war that I'm fighting in my mind anymore--there's just life, and those in it, and a strong will to change it for the better.

The war is being won all of the time in Christianity. There is the benefit right now in changing those things which rob us of life, and the hope of justice which enables us to logically justify forgiveness, and avoid conflict.

Well that would be a nice way to look at it, I'll give you props for that. Your brethren, on the other hand, see it as I did.

There's just today, and tomorrow hopefully, and the rest of my life and that of my childrens lives and their childrens lives to fight for without leaning on the prospect that those who do wrong will be charged with eternal torment later so I need not do anything about it.

Well you escaped from that evil. Thank God.

Yes, thank goodness I don't have faith in an infinite judgement for those on this earth who commit finite sins against me.

No more do I live with a defeated attitude towards changing my circumstances in the delusion that I'm fighting a demonic force that's bound to keep me suppressed in this lifetime. I feel entitled to live this life fighting for a place in it just like everyone else, and it's liberating. My quality of life has improved.

I'm waiting from one reason from you to support your professed past belief in Christ, because all I'm seeing is the opposite. You keep coming out with this bile, and then attributing it to something beautiful, as men always do.

Broken record?

I think about my tormentors, and I feel bad for them because they too endured some pretty rough shit for having lived this life. We all have a path to take, they took the wrong way and I am not going to let the ripple of their actions continue within me in this life, anymore. I brush off what they did quite easily now and I move on. I barely think about it anymore. And I definitely don't hold in my mind this belief that they'll be tormented in the afterlife for what they did, that's sadistic quite honestly.

Well yeah, they tortured themselves as well as committing such abominations to others. You no longer abuse others, and you've stopped abusing yourself.

You think Christians want people to suffer in the afterlife? You have some pretty screwed up ideas. I honestly find it hard to comprehend such ignorance of the basic concepts when you also seemingly profess a Christian past. Everything you've said conveys the opposite. I don't care what label you put on it. All of that is anti Christ. No question about it.

Some do, yeah. Vindictive Christians, surely. Imperfect Christians. Or is Christianity synonymous with perfectionism in your eyes?
Even those like you who dont want people to suffer in the afterlife are complacent in their belief in god by accepting that he does this to people, so yeah. You're just as much to blame as he is. If you hope that he's not going to do that to people, I'd say that's your bad because god made clear in the bible what he's going to do. And he never put an 'out' there, it's plain as day. Infinite torment for finite actions. HELL is real to you, remember?

The only dire prospect for me in this scenario is knowing that in the future, someone with the same religious-infused dogma as Hitler may actually succeed at their endeavors.

People abusing good things, as people do. We should abolish anything good by that rationale then?

Are you really asking an athiest to agree that religion is good and thus use that as rationale for abolishing anything good because humans fuck shit up?
Wow.

Why did I ask about the End of Times? Because there are right now people who believe that an anti-christ will reign free on all of earth, taking it over. They live in fear but more importantly: there's nutjobs out there making fiction a reality. There's an earth-bound religious war happening based on these beliefs.

Nutjobs are nutjobs. What are you going to do about that?

Topple down the glass house they live in so they can see the truth. Then, if they still insist on being harmful: respond accordingly with social justice.

Why are you so bound to disown me from your beliefs? Is it frightening to see the truth or are you just playing ignorant?

What you call ignorant every Christian (trinitarian) on here is telling you is mistaken. Just who is it you're taking as authority here?

I didn't call you or every trinitarian on here ignorant. I asked if you are playing ignorant to the fact that I at one time, would have been happily welcomed in your brethrens' arms as a true Christian.

No one here is adopting that evil you call a christian past. Maybe we could petition Fred Phelps to come and vouch for you?

God it takes forever to respond to you. Can we just paraphrase here on out rather than blow by blow responses?

Please support your assertion that I've bastardised biblical text in any way.

I do that at every opportunity. you never seem to continue those discussions though.

Show me where, or revisit a few if you can remember. I'm pretty good at addressing everything presented to me, thanks.

Wrong. Your god knows all possibilities so surely he must know that we are not damned automatically. If we were, and he's willing to prevent that damned life by ripping it out of the womb without giving it a choice: then he'd be wrong in doing so, for supposition states that he wishes to give us free will to choose him or to reject him. If he kills babies out of the womb who have not been able to sin: then he cannot judge them based on future sins that they never committed and still be a Just god. He'd have to send them straight to heaven, and hence over-ride his purpose of giving those spirits free willed choice.

If God knows all of time, then he knows what every life does before it begins. You are not damned automatically... but the choices you make are already known to him. Therefore he is not wrong, and your objection fails.

No, if god knows our destiny before we make our choices: then he's a dick for creating a majority to go to hell for a minority to be his companions. If god knows what we will choose before we choose it, then he's cruel for even creating beings knowing they'll be going to hell. Plus, I thought we were talking about god doing pre-mptive strikes on unborn babies.

So you believe in more than one god?

No silly. God is 3 persons.

And I'm the silly one. Mmmkkk