[quote='FallentoReason' pid='430764' dateline='1365764532']
[quote]This isn't an original argument by me, but rather an argument from a Youtuber whose video can be found in this thread: http://atheistforums.org/thread-18268.html
Thanks for sharing that with us median. I've watched more of his videos and I can't believe he does daytime TV instead of travel the world and debate with theists. Absolutely brilliant.
Anyways. He begins by explaining an observation of our universe: here we all are, debating about whether the Christian god exists or not which apparently is too shy to show himself. It seems rather strange that his existence isn't just an everyday fact but rather an "abstract truth" that isn't all that evident, especially when there's so many religions claiming that they're the ones worshipping the true god(s). This, he says, is the last thing we should expect from Bible god. The argument is as follows:[/quote]I always find better to let you tubers do all of my thinking as well..
[quote]1) If God exists, he desires for us to know x is true, where x is the set of propositions we need to believe in so that we can be saved.[/quote]
So it is 'your belief' (by differing to this guys logic) That X is needed for salvation? If so does that make Jesus a Liar? He seems to think there wasn't a 'set of propostition needed for salvation.' He taught the oppsite, that we only needed that faith of a mustard seed.
[quote]2) If God exists, he has the power to make us know x is true.[/quote]And He does to all of those who act on their faith.
[quote]3) If God exists, and given (1) & (2), we should know x is true.[/quote]If X Can simply be the absolute knoweledge of God. Then God can let us know that X is true.
[quote]4) We do not know x is true.[/quote]If you do not know it is because you have not asked, sought, or knocked as outlined in Luke 11.
[quote]C) Given (3) & (4), God does not exist.[/quote]
..And If 'X' is a known quanity then can it also be said God does exist?
[quote]He goes on to explain that free will doesn't come into this argument as an objection, because God giving us the knowledge that x is true wouldn't negate our free will. The Bible itself gives us plenty of instances where an agent knew God exists, but yet they chose to rebel. There were even agents in the direct presence of God, yet they chose to rebel e.g. Lucifer. So clearly, God making sure we knew x is true shouldn't be a problem at all, but yet we are plagued with people not knowing x is true.
[/quote]
rebellion is not the objection to free will here. When people have a true heart for God they will seek him out no matter the obstacial, when they do not then then nothing that can be provided in the way of proof or convincing will make them give themselves over to God. Christ speaks of this when He addresses the Luke warm believers. These people know of God without reservation or doubt, they simply do not give themselves to God, as God asks us to do.(Which is rebellion enough to sentence them to Hell) Which is why Christ identifies them as non believers. There will be no greater torment than being in Hell not not understand why you are there. The current seperation God has placed between non believers and believers is for the benfit of those non-believers who are honest enough with themselves to claim that title.
Without this clear seperation the vast majority of those in Hell would have gone through the motions of Christianity and may not fully understand why they are there.
mt7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
[quote]This isn't an original argument by me, but rather an argument from a Youtuber whose video can be found in this thread: http://atheistforums.org/thread-18268.html
Thanks for sharing that with us median. I've watched more of his videos and I can't believe he does daytime TV instead of travel the world and debate with theists. Absolutely brilliant.
Anyways. He begins by explaining an observation of our universe: here we all are, debating about whether the Christian god exists or not which apparently is too shy to show himself. It seems rather strange that his existence isn't just an everyday fact but rather an "abstract truth" that isn't all that evident, especially when there's so many religions claiming that they're the ones worshipping the true god(s). This, he says, is the last thing we should expect from Bible god. The argument is as follows:[/quote]I always find better to let you tubers do all of my thinking as well..
[quote]1) If God exists, he desires for us to know x is true, where x is the set of propositions we need to believe in so that we can be saved.[/quote]
So it is 'your belief' (by differing to this guys logic) That X is needed for salvation? If so does that make Jesus a Liar? He seems to think there wasn't a 'set of propostition needed for salvation.' He taught the oppsite, that we only needed that faith of a mustard seed.[quote]2) If God exists, he has the power to make us know x is true.[/quote]And He does to all of those who act on their faith.
[quote]3) If God exists, and given (1) & (2), we should know x is true.[/quote]If X Can simply be the absolute knoweledge of God. Then God can let us know that X is true.
[quote]4) We do not know x is true.[/quote]If you do not know it is because you have not asked, sought, or knocked as outlined in Luke 11.
[quote]C) Given (3) & (4), God does not exist.[/quote]
..And If 'X' is a known quanity then can it also be said God does exist?
[quote]He goes on to explain that free will doesn't come into this argument as an objection, because God giving us the knowledge that x is true wouldn't negate our free will. The Bible itself gives us plenty of instances where an agent knew God exists, but yet they chose to rebel. There were even agents in the direct presence of God, yet they chose to rebel e.g. Lucifer. So clearly, God making sure we knew x is true shouldn't be a problem at all, but yet we are plagued with people not knowing x is true.
[/quote]
rebellion is not the objection to free will here. When people have a true heart for God they will seek him out no matter the obstacial, when they do not then then nothing that can be provided in the way of proof or convincing will make them give themselves over to God. Christ speaks of this when He addresses the Luke warm believers. These people know of God without reservation or doubt, they simply do not give themselves to God, as God asks us to do.(Which is rebellion enough to sentence them to Hell) Which is why Christ identifies them as non believers. There will be no greater torment than being in Hell not not understand why you are there. The current seperation God has placed between non believers and believers is for the benfit of those non-believers who are honest enough with themselves to claim that title.
Without this clear seperation the vast majority of those in Hell would have gone through the motions of Christianity and may not fully understand why they are there.
mt7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
