On Non-belief

[Tex]

I don't think removing any possibility for doubt is required of God. In fact, I think it's required he allow the possibility. The greater the possibility to doubt, the greater the free will. Those who investigate generally (but not always) find the evidence, but some of this evidence must be studied and contemplated before understood. All of this is an exercise of the will.

So, you're positing a universe that has a creator god that definitively exists, has a plan for us, a way that he desires we should act for a maximally good life, and loves us enough that he wishes to spend eternity with us... but will not, in any sense, give us proof that he exists because he wants us to make our own mistakes, upon which he is personally offended and willing to punish us eternally for doing so, all the while grieving that he has to do so. Am I right in this?

How does this not strike you as a cosmic-level act of passive aggression?

I'm positing a universe that has a creator god that definitively exists, has a plan for us, a way that he desires we should act for a maximally good life, and love us enough that he wishes to spend eternity with us... but will not give an unnecessary surplus of proof that he exists because he wants us to be free beings, which often is abused and harm is caused and is personally offended and willing to punish those who latch on to the sins, all the while grieve that he has to do so.

If we were simply given knowledge beyond the shadow of a doubt, free will would not be very important. It would allow us to eat beef over chicken, but that's about it. Instead, because of the doubt, those that do not want to receive knowledge don't by their own free choice. Those that want the knowledge are free to obtain it by their own workings.

Why would god wish for a universe to exist wherein it is possible for his creations, that he loves, to fall into sin, which he hates? How does this make sense to you?

The device "free will" is necessary for God to have a parent-child relationship. I love my computer and all the awesomeness within. However, my computer does not love me. Those awesome things I love do not love me. Free will lets us love God back. It also allows us to reject. This tool is necessary in order to make humans from mathematically determined robots to people.

Finally, I don't even know if the knowledge beyond a doubt would help so many people. I can't reasonably say all, but most people would still want to do what they want, make their own way, and basically dismiss the knowledge they have as unimportant.

This contradicts your earlier statement that absolute knowledge of god would suppress free will, but I do agree with you; knowing that something exists doesn't necessarily entail that one must worship it. It would, however, be a much better way of ensuring the maximum number of people are fit to enter heaven, no?

I didn't make it clear (sorry!), but assuming it doesn't mess with free will, I don't even know how much it would help. I'm still pretty sure that forcing knowledge upon someone messes with freedom of choice, but if I'm wrong, I still doubt it would affect much.

It'd sure as hell help.

This is what I questioned above. I don't think it would. I know Romney exists. I know what he's done and I know his plan for us. I could know all sorts of things about Romney. None of that knowledge actually means we're friends. That doesn't even mean I vote for him. In fact, sometimes, the more you know the more you hate. It's uncontested that Romney exists, but his platform is obviously contested. I think the same scenario would happen.