free will paradox

[fr0d0]

Paraphrase or butcher as you like Missy C. I'll not object

Well of course I'd love to help you out with that, but you see you don't state why the points made on this forum aren't valid to you..

Erm... yes I do.. every time you make one.. actually: every time I respond to your posts I point it out to you.

Your fear that without it, hopelessness prevails and darkness reigns, and you're afraid of where you're morality will be based because of your past. I'd say let go of your past, and realize who you are now is far more pertinent, but then..You don't want to hear what I have to say do you?

Funny you should think that the love and positivity I feel translates fear of losing that Oh yeah that's what motivates me.. sure! Scared to death!! *trembles*

I know where your morality is based, yeah. You've confirmed it in your own words. The world is a sucky place and realists just get on with it. I knows that sure enough. --- What I can't seem to get you to appreciate is that world views alter that.

Take 2 people. Joy understands the world to be good. Having a positive outcome and where bad stuff never wins. Damien understands that the world isn't fair. It's neither good or bad. Sometimes bad stuff wins.

Joy plays up to her world view. She has good reason to be good to everyone, because in her reality that's always the result. No matter what.

Damien has no real motive to to be good. To him justice is that everyone gets their fair share of crap. If someone's winning that's bad. If someone's losing that's bad. If he (or anyone else) gets to the end of it neither overly happy nor overly sad... he will think of that as success.

You don't give me any benefit of doubt whatsoever, really. And I don't doubt that anything presented to you will be falsified and a version of bastardization to you. I'm just talking to talk at this point, aren't I? Or are you not hopeless?

Well I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were actually a christian with good reason at some point in the past. Despite you not providing a single bit of evidence of that yet.

You certainly can't seem to accept that the really bad stuff you're relating has anything to do with Christianity, apart from what Christians do when they fail as Christians.

If you base your anti Christianity on what people do against christ, then you have no real argument against Christ. Is that fair?

I don't know where you get the word hate from anywhere in my quote fr0d0. Hatred of dogma? I don't hate your religion, I dislike the inevitable conclusions that get drawn from the words in your bible, and the social implications of the bias it teaches. I think you've seen me say things like, "Fuck god," and such which is really me breaking free from the suppressive thoughts I'd been taught my entire life.

Dogma isn't religion. Dogma are the cliche's and common words used in established practice. God, Christ, Sin, Evil, Hell > I'm saying: all have negative conotations for you that would prevent you seeing past those negative connotations when people use them in conversation. Christians here only have to speak to have the dogma dragged out and applied over what they're saying. What then gets addressed is the hated word rather than the point of the conversation.

Lemme clue you in: I hate religion. I hate the inevitable conclusions that get drawn from words in the Xtian bible. I hate a lot of christians a lot of the time. And I'm talking justified hate here and not me being wrong myself. I'd expect other people to hate it in me too. Why not.

I also hate the Christianity that you were exposed too. that crap needs nuking for sure. I'm with you there. Say a time and I'll be there with the machine gun.

Evolution is real. Absolutely. No question. Nothing anti Christian about that.

I thought you believed in Adam and Eve though?

What like I believe there really was a tortoise and a hare you mean? Yeah I believe that stuffs. Mighty tortoise was the forerunner of all tortoises everywhere. Before that time tortoises were laughed at as losers. No more haha no more!

Prayer cannot be enforced. Belief is not belief if it's forced/ Choice cannot be choice if there is no choice. Belief in God cannot be a choice if you're not given the choice to believe or not.

The act of prayer can be imposed, fr0d0. Even I remember as a kid sitting in the auditorium during a mandatory pep rally, with all of my schools' heads bowed at the cusp of a V.I.P. basketball game, wondering just what those goth kids must be thinking at this point?

You missed the point. Yeah, it can be enforced: but those being forced are not praying. They're making noises with their mouths. Christianity, minus the choice, isn't christianity. A point made by an awesome Irish monk to the Pope of the time. The Pope had him put to death for saying it.

You know, when I do have children fr0d0, fiction will be fiction and fact will be fact. I highly doubt they'd decide that the Bible was anything worth fighting for or dying for, since I will let them make their own minds up on things.

Well I'm glad you're not biased ONE WAY OR THE OTHER! OOPS!

I live with my niece, who said to me the other night, "I pray my prayer every night "as I lay me down to sleep, I pray my lord my soul to keep, if I should die before I wake, I pray my lord my soul to take."
As fucked up as it was for me to hear a seven year old say that, I didn't say anything to refute her beliefs. I actually told her she could just talk to god during her prayers, and tell him what's on her mind or what's troubling her. Not because I believe she should be talking to nothingness, but because if she's going to talk to nothingness she might as well work out her life problems while she's at it and not focus on death.

To God that stuff is white noise. To us it's white noise going out. I really don't get all of that regurgitated stuff. I mean.. it's a throw back from the priests being the only ones intelligent enough to understand the bible. The rest of us schmucks need to be told what to think We don't have the capacity after all. I bet you can guess where I place that on the Christ - Anti Christ scale

You're right fr0d0, justice is not found on this earth. Pure justice is beyond humanities' capabilities right now for the mere fact that we let our emotions and beliefs dictate our balance of true justice.

So you think in some fantasy future you're going to sort this out?

Read any history book and you'll see that any form of religion has proved to be the ultimate injustice, and so rooted in people's psyche that they cannot allow their decisions to be neutrally beneficial for all of mankind, with it rooted in their world-view.

If you have extreme good then that will always attract extreme bad. That stuff is way tooo tempting for a power seeking megalomaniac not to abuse. It's why priests figure so highly in most societies... the ruling class knows this is the best way to control people. there is no better way to sucker the masses.

I don't believe you're wrong in your beliefs, fr0d0. I think you're limited by them and you limit the world around you, so naturally I want you freed of that. You on the other hand, believe I'm going to hell.

No I believe you're in hell now. Just like me sometimes.

That's the point of the Adam and Eve story: Humans are fallable. You might not think that. That's ok. If you do, then you understand what it means to be living hell.

You believe I'm wrong because I'm scared the fantastic stuff I understan might be as crap as your reality? Explain that to me again. (no sarcasm intended here - it sounds like it, but I didn't mean it)

Without forgiveness. Without what our civilisation calls "civilised": from (derived and justified though) our Christian heritage, you have utter hopelessness.

Surely I'm not the first person to ask you what justice was considered to be, before Christian god came on the scene?There’s never been a fixed standard for decent behavior. It varies over time and from one culture to another

Nopety nope nope. What you've just described is secular motrality. It's what the Germans had when it was ok to kill Jews, and ok to think of black people as sub human, so you could experiment on them like you might an animal.

There is justice sans God everywhere. Cutting off hands, Killing even... is all justice to someone. To me though that justice is 'hopeless' justice. It assumes unfairness. It assumes that a person cannot change. It's barbaric. Start talking, as I'm sure you're tempted to about how justice isn't barbaric, and you mimic the Christian model.

, and assuming you believe in evolution as you do: well then you must realize that religion is based on morality and morality has its' root in social structure and instincts.

Like I said, I assume you missed it, this is what we call an inbuilt spark in all humans of God's goodness. More dogma for you

Next, Consider rules you make for children. If the reason for them is understood at some point, the children no longer need them. Like, "Stay away from the pool." When the kids become old enough (Conscious enough) to realize that they can fall in and not get out, and that it's highly unpleasant to get water in their nose and mouth--then they'll get wise, and the rules become unnecessary to them.
They didn't need you to tell them that god doesn't want them near the pool, to realize that naturally it can be harmful for them and the reason for the rule is no longer needed because they learned the lesson.

To you Gods rules are oppressive. To me Gods rules are liberating.

When I became a Christian I no longer felt afraid of the police. Weird huh. I think that's it though... I am inspired to be good. If I was forced that would be worthless... again not a choice. Not something I thought about. Someone else's idea that I'm mindlessly going along with.

Yeah there are millions of Christians who are mindless. If they're totally mindless then they aren't really following christ are they?

You were subject to crazy, self defeating and therefore absolutely anti God beliefs. Yes I would imagine that a neutral view is far healthier for you. It is clearly inferior to a world view that makes peace rationally justifiable.

In your definition of anti-god: then you really must be one of the only Christians who aren't anti god.

That's a very pessimistic view. I think that's true for you and your experience. In your society I think it's very different to mine. My society has less than 6% Christians. Yours the vast majority I understand. But here's you not knowing just one.

Frodo: Tell me how I misinterpreted these verses in any way, in giving my full faith both physically, mentally, and 'spiritually', to him with the faith that he would answer my prayers?

In conclusion, I'm not the only Christian out there that believed this shit Fr0d0.

Sorry C there's just too much there to be able to comment. It's BS to me but then that's not like anything that I do. I couldn't say what that was on the religious scale. I wouldn't want to without understanding it better. Gimme something simpler and I'll give it a go.

By what logic are you saying that theism should be wiped out "one theist at a time"? Suddenly you appear to be a bigot.

How did I say theism should be wiped out one theist at a time? I said hope lies in the future starting with one theist (deconversion) at a time. Your interpretation of this as being anything other than what it is, labels you not me.

You're saying hope lies in the demise of my belief. You don't understand my belief, and you want rid of it. I understand what it is to lack faith. I understand the inferiority of it. I absolutley don't wish it any harm. With variety of expression comes discovery. Limiting discovery limits life. and I'm against that. It appears that you are not.

Here's a good roundabout of the reasonings that lead me to live life not for myself, to love others more than myself, to give everything of myself, and to want nothing for myself. How was I an anti-Christian, fr0d0?
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It's anti Christian because you can't love others unless you love yourself first. Unless you can understand your worth. Unless you can appreciate that you're beautiful as you are, you have no hope of helping anyone else. All you're going to do is drag them down to your level. You have to reflect the glory of God in you. What I get from you isn't selflessness. What I get is self punishment. Like you want to be God and take everyone else's punishment. You have a Jesus complex.

[quote=frodo]
Yeah... you aren't talking about a past good here. You're talking about a past lived anti God.

I don't think you want to admit that I read the same damn book you did, and lived a life slightly more literal than you did. Plain and simple.

You were better than me. Check.

Literal. Check.

Severely misguided. Check. (Oops I said that out loud didn't I? )

Of course we can all self-impose hells upon ourselves, it's a human right and quite typically is caused by external influences and traumatic experiences.

No. It's quite typically self imposed.

Is that not what I said? I feel like I'm speaking to an empty theatre. We self impose hells. But why do we do that??? CAUSED BY EXTERNAL INFLUENCES AND TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCES.
What's the discourse here? I'm confused as to why you're even arguing me on this, besides the mere fact that you must disagree with everything I say because I am so "anti Christ".

You're not anti Christ. What I've seen you relate is anti Christ.

You missed my meaning. I said self imposed, and you turned the blame onto outside influences. I say SELF imposed.

The difference is: and pay attention--when I now think about the iniquities done upon me by men: I don't live life with a burning flame of hope and satisfaction that justice will be served upon them in death by the all mighty god.

And you think this is pro Christ?!? Wow.

"The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men . . . " (Romans 1:18)

Does this verse not vindicate you in your heart? If you lost someone you loved to anothers' hand, would you not hold these words dear in order to drop your anger and hatred for that person? In your religion, one must give god the responsibility for the justification of wrongs, in order to 'heal' and forgive.

I get no satisfaction in the punishment of others, because I don't know why they do what they do. Therefore I cannot judge them. My animal instinct wants revenge.

To seek revenge of any sort, by God or any other mechanism, is life taking from me. If I can't release myself from that then I become a victim of it. Do you understand how that's different?

I don't get horrifically upset when I see similar issues go on around me, I have the strength to fight for the victims of those situations rather than cowering behind the belief that god is greater than me.

The love of Christ in you inspired you to neglect your fellow man. And this is pro Christ?? Wow

No. I was made weak and helpless, in my faith that some non-existent being would take care of the matters in his own way, not of this earth.

Then that was cowardly and you being innefective for God, when you could achieve a lot better... by having the inspiration of a better world view. You failed God where now you know how to do better. you weren't inspired by good. You were incapacitated by fear/ hatred/ guilt... all of these things are anti life. Anti God and anti Christ. I don't care what the hell you professed. I don't care what I profess. If I am guilty of not living then I know that I'm acting against good. I can't deny that.

I'm now saved from opting to disregard the current state of things under the blanket belief that what is, is and will always be.

Your love of christ and justive lead you to leave the world to it's evil ways? Wow.

No, my bible lead me to believe I'm fighting a losing battle no matter what against a force I can never overcome, and that I should put my trust in god allmighty and follow him, and he'd show me the way to go. I gave up my will for his will. Problem is, he has no will; he doesn't exist.

With God the force is already overcome. You are gifted to live in freedom from guilt. To be under a force is to be against God.

There's no unwinnable war that I'm fighting in my mind anymore--there's just life, and those in it, and a strong will to change it for the better.

The war is being won all of the time in Christianity. There is the benefit right now in changing those things which rob us of life, and the hope of justice which enables us to logically justify forgiveness, and avoid conflict.

Well that would be a nice way to look at it, I'll give you props for that. Your brethren, on the other hand, see it as I did.

My 'brethren' are as capable of evil as anyone. Xtianity is an aim. Not a goal. There's no magic pass. Every moment involves choices. you choose which way to go... good or bad. Doesn't matter which badge you're wearing. You may have decided to believe in something. That never stops you from acting in either way.

Yes, thank goodness I don't have faith in an infinite judgement for those on this earth who commit finite sins against me.

Not infinite. Go check.

Yes. Thank goodness you have no reason to think well of people. to be inspired to love instead of hate.

I'm waiting from one reason from you to support your professed past belief in Christ, because all I'm seeing is the opposite. You keep coming out with this bile, and then attributing it to something beautiful, as men always do.

Broken record?

Make it stop!!!

Some do, yeah. Vindictive Christians, surely. Imperfect Christians. Or is Christianity synonymous with perfectionism in your eyes?
Even those like you who dont want people to suffer in the afterlife are complacent in their belief in god by accepting that he does this to people, so yeah. You're just as much to blame as he is. If you hope that he's not going to do that to people, I'd say that's your bad because god made clear in the bible what he's going to do. And he never put an 'out' there, it's plain as day. Infinite torment for finite actions. HELL is real to you, remember?

Hell is real. It's right here and right now. Dogma.

Infinite: no.

Justice? Yeah I believe that it's served. Love wins. Love triumphs over evil/ is the dominant force. Hatred is the opposite of what I feel. Love for everyone in their true state. Minus the hurt that causes them to suffer.

The only dire prospect for me in this scenario is knowing that in the future, someone with the same religious-infused dogma as Hitler may actually succeed at their endeavors.

People abusing good things, as people do. We should abolish anything good by that rationale then?

Are you really asking an athiest to agree that religion is good and thus use that as rationale for abolishing anything good because humans fuck shit up?
Wow.

No I'm asking you if your logic follows. If good encourages bad, should we abolish good so that we also don't get bad.

Why did I ask about the End of Times? Because there are right now people who believe that an anti-christ will reign free on all of earth, taking it over. They live in fear but more importantly: there's nutjobs out there making fiction a reality. There's an earth-bound religious war happening based on these beliefs.

Nutjobs are nutjobs. What are you going to do about that?

Topple down the glass house they live in so they can see the truth. Then, if they still insist on being harmful: respond accordingly with social justice.

Yep lets take the tanks. Nothing wrong with that. I'm with you. Social justice though.... what are we gonna do? Gas them? Experiment on them a little?

Why are you so bound to disown me from your beliefs? Is it frightening to see the truth or are you just playing ignorant?

What you call ignorant every Christian (trinitarian) on here is telling you is mistaken. Just who is it you're taking as authority here?

I didn't call you or every trinitarian on here ignorant. I asked if you are playing ignorant to the fact that I at one time, would have been happily welcomed in your brethrens' arms as a true Christian.

I don't disown you at all. I disown the evil acts you attribute to Christianity. One at a time, as I see them. I said that I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. I still am, despite no evidence to the contrary. Yet.