Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible

[Daystar]

I don't know, actually. Not a class struggle, though, since believers and non-believers are spread out among "classes" (Although there is evidence that suggests that more educated people are less likely to believe). Myself, I've never really felt there needed to be a struggle, per se, between Atheists and Theists, although I feel that (as I've said before) the teaching of creationism (not biblical-specific, any origin myth) should be fought. Of course, it's often true that people with opposing views especially of a theological nature are bound to argue, and perhaps you could call that a struggle. But there is not, to my knowledge, an organized group of atheists (anti-theists?) who are actively struggling to "destroy" religion.

Consider the possibility that atheism and theism themselves are a class regardless of their class. It is a political struggle, really. Education is only a small aside. There is no organized group of atheists actively doing anything. Yet.

Yes. If you want to argue semantics, you're right. But in that you are implying that believed gods are real, which I feel undermines the whole point of a "God." I could say that there is a ghost following me around, and that would not make it right, that would not make it so. Maybe in my mind there is a ghost, and he's a nice guy, but for everyone else, is he real? I don't think so.

Your ghost doesn't apply in the same way. A god isn't defined in the same way. A god is anything that is venerated or mighty. A political hero, an idol. It doesn't have to be real to anyone else or exist in any other sense. The gods of mythology and pagan superstition are as real as the gods of the Bible. Zeus doesn't depend upon any observations other than that he was a god. It doesn't matter if he is real or not he is still a real god. Atheists tend to miss that point because they get caught up in the position of defending a belief in the non-existence of God and Allah only because those two pose a political threat. Zeus doesn't.

Why doesn't non-belief make sense? I know what I don't believe: I do not believe in a supernatural force, being, fate, entity which guides my life or has ever interfered with the universe. Plain and simple. Now if you can explain to me why I don't know what I am talking about, on a basic level, I'd be glad to hear it.

Well that is the point, isn't it? Belief isn't an issue. If you define atheism as simply not believing in any gods - that is to say, worshipping gods then it means nothing. There is no political or even rational position you can take there other than to make a statement of non-belief. Is that atheism? But to say that there is no gods is just ignorant of what the word god means and it doesn't specify God Jehovah or Allah which is the real problem anyway.

By the way - Jehovah God doesn't claim to guide your life. Which brings us to the point atheists always make regarding supernatural. Supernatural is only something that science can't test or prove. To deny the supernatural is only another means of saying you condemn what you can't understand. I am fascinated to discover that most atheist believe in extra terrestrial life.

It is really a question of control by specific Gods you reject and since those gods don't actually exist it is a political struggle with those who allegedly represent him.

I'm not really sure what you mean by the simple legislation bit- how would that be a problem exactly? Could you rephrase? Now, your definition of an atheist is "really nothing more than not believing what someone else believes while at the same time not bothering to educate themselves on what this is" and I strongly disagree. I do not believe in god. But, I am in the process of reading the bible, and the book of mormon, because I am actually trying to learn. Generalized statements which are not really founded in truth are a bit... useless, don't you think?

Legislation matters more than anything else. Christendom still has a tremendous political power. Raise the issue of abortion, gay rights, stem cell research, and even as you mentioned earlier Evolution Vs. Intelligent Design in public schools with atheists and you have a heated debate.

You say that you do not believe in god but you can't even state that in a definitive way. You do not believe in which god? All gods? Believe in them? What does that mean, you don't think they exist? In the Bible there are many gods mentioned. I can show you pictures of gods. The apostle Paul said that even ones own belly could be a god. You don't believe in god? That means nothing. You don't even know what one is.

As for the other points you raise- why would an atheist care about these things? Well, for some of them I do care- important issues to me include tradition, culture, social ones (political? not really, I've never been a political-minded person.). Education, homosexuality, abortion, stem cell research... these things are all issues that I think should be important to everyone. Education- it's important that the education system improves, and stays grounded in reason, and should not be teaching "fairytales" as facts to children. Homosexuality is another hot topic, but I think in a way only because it shouldn't be. The church, or religious people who are against homosexuals, are in the wrong. They shouldn't care what people do with their own lives, that's just silly. And the bible is the root of that homophobia for many christians, I think, which is a problem. Abortion is another issue where many religious people would be on the other side of the issue from me- I think that the mother should be given the right to choose. Stem cell research? Yeah, I'm for that too, although many religious leaders are not.

Homosexuality is an issue that until very recently was left to society (which decides what is morally right or wrong). The Bible only says that in order to be a Christian they must turn away from practicing homosexuality. I for example, have done this. It is a personal decision and homosexuality itself is only an issue with the Christian congregation. In other words Christian rules and regulations only apply to Christians; unfortunately Xians try and regulate things like homosexuality and abortion through legislation and political means. This isn't scriptural but when an uninformed atheist like you reads the Bible you see it as the root of their position on such things without realizing that the Bible is being misused in order to do that.

Oh, and what you think of as fairy tales other disagree and what you think are facts others might see as fairy tales.

I agree. Completely. A group should not be formed. But I come on sites like this because I know that it's not only atheists on here- there're people like you who I can talk to and get a different idea. This website is not the germ of a resistance group. It, and others like it, are simply places where like-minded people can meet. Before I started looking, I felt like I was one of the few atheists around, and it was nice to have some feedback and realize that other people felt the same way I did. But I don't see it as a group, more of a discussion. I don't meet on here and plan to do anything against religion, it is only a discussion. Where is the political agenda in that?

To be honest most places like this are devoted exclusively to mocking the Bible and religion. Me - I'm a Bible student who hates religion. My position is usually to try and teach the Bible to atheists so that they have a better understanding of it and if they are unreceptive I try and understand why and give my two cents.
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Mr Daystar, you are very wordy. You probably have a superiority complex.

That has definitely been my impression too.

He obviously has a good understanding of langauge and where words come from (etymology?) but his answers tend to be wordy but without any real substance (other than "I understand things better than you").

As for what "ahesists hate", I'm afraid I don't hate anything or anyone.

I'm not shouting "There is no god!" from the rooftops, but I will certainly say "I'm pretty sure there isn't a god".

You seem to be saying "religion is wrong, but my interpretation of the bible is right". Which is exactly what every follower of a religion is saying, as has been said in a better way, I'm only one more god agnostic than you.

Religion never stays true, even to itself. The Hebrews waited two thousand years for a messiah and when he arrived they killed him. Why? Because their religion distorted his meaning into their own.

The apostle Paul foretold that Christianity would change into myth and fables and it did.

There are only two ways to interpret the Bible. Right and wrong. Is my way right? Increasingly so - which means that I have gotten it wrong in the past and will get it wrong in the future. Interpretation is accountable to the Bible itself. Testable.

No one who has ever lived will get it all right. That isn't even the point.

Edit: By the way I really don't understand your saying that I am too wordy. Do you mean pedantic or verbose? 'Cause, damn ... verbose I would give you but pedantic?! C'mon!