(November 24, 2008 at 11:30 am)Daystar Wrote: Consider the possibility that atheism and theism themselves are a class regardless of their class. It is a political struggle, really. Education is only a small aside. There is no organized group of atheists actively doing anything. Yet.
Education is not a small aside- it is very important. How are people to know what is the result of natural happenings instead of a supernatural happening? Anyway, perhaps there is the potential for a political struggle between atheists and theists, but where is the struggle now? Online, in chatrooms? Or are you talking about battles over what should be taught in school? Because that, for example, is not a simple battle of atheist vs theist- there are creationists on one side trying to push creation into schooling, and on the other side are atheists and theists like, not a pure-atheist group. And I still don't think it's a class struggle- class implies different levels in a hierarchy of society, whereas, like I said before, atheists and theists are spread out along the continuum.
(November 24, 2008 at 11:30 am)Daystar Wrote: Your ghost doesn't apply in the same way. A god isn't defined in the same way. A god is anything that is venerated or mighty. A political hero, an idol. It doesn't have to be real to anyone else or exist in any other sense. The gods of mythology and pagan superstition are as real as the gods of the Bible. Zeus doesn't depend upon any observations other than that he was a god. It doesn't matter if he is real or not he is still a real god. Atheists tend to miss that point because they get caught up in the position of defending a belief in the non-existence of God and Allah only because those two pose a political threat. Zeus doesn't.
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Well that is the point, isn't it? Belief isn't an issue. If you define atheism as simply not believing in any gods - that is to say, worshipping gods then it means nothing. There is no political or even rational position you can take there other than to make a statement of non-belief. Is that atheism? But to say that there is no gods is just ignorant of what the word god means and it doesn't specify God Jehovah or Allah which is the real problem anyway.
By the way - Jehovah God doesn't claim to guide your life. Which brings us to the point atheists always make regarding supernatural. Supernatural is only something that science can't test or prove. To deny the supernatural is only another means of saying you condemn what you can't understand. I am fascinated to discover that most atheist believe in extra terrestrial life.
is really a question of control by specific Gods you reject and since those gods don't actually exist it is a political struggle with those who allegedly represent him.
Okay... so you admit then that your god may not be real or exist in any other sense than that you believe in it? Because then we agree.
But that doesn't really make sense- the whole point of theism (although not deism, for example) is believing, fully, that there is a guiding "god." If you try to tell me that the many religious people who believe in god actually think that their God does not exist, then you need a reality check. But you're still arguing semantics. If you define a god as "anything venerated" then obviously there indeed are gods. So, by your definition, I don't deny that there are indeed many gods, all created by man. But I do not ascribe to them any powers, or any existence other than in the minds of others. So what exactly is your point?
(November 24, 2008 at 11:30 am)Daystar Wrote: You say that you do not believe in god but you can't even state that in a definitive way. You do not believe in which god? All gods? Believe in them? What does that mean, you don't think they exist? In the Bible there are many gods mentioned. I can show you pictures of gods. The apostle Paul said that even ones own belly could be a god. You don't believe in god? That means nothing. You don't even know what one is.
And here I think you definitely are being pedantic. Can you really not understand what I mean when I say I don't believe in god? Perhaps it would be simpler for me to say I do not believe in anything supernatural, because I have never seen any evidence for it myself. But do I need to go out of my way to tell you I don't believe that a belly is a god? Maybe by your "anything venerated" definition it is, but clearly, an atheist is not talking about this definition.
(November 24, 2008 at 11:30 am)Daystar Wrote: Homosexuality is an issue that until very recently was left to society (which decides what is morally right or wrong). The Bible only says that in order to be a Christian they must turn away from practicing homosexuality. I for example, have done this. It is a personal decision and homosexuality itself is only an issue with the Christian congregation. In other words Christian rules and regulations only apply to Christians; unfortunately Xians try and regulate things like homosexuality and abortion through legislation and political means. This isn't scriptural but when an uninformed atheist like you reads the Bible you see it as the root of their position on such things without realizing that the Bible is being misused in order to do that.
I guess this is the sort of thing you're talking about:
Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
These are from just a quick Google search, of course, taken from
http://www.carm.org/questions/homosexuality.htm
Also, I find it odd that you say you hate religion, and yet say "The Bible only says that in order to be a Christian they must turn away from practicing homosexuality. I for example, have done this."
(November 24, 2008 at 11:30 am)Daystar Wrote: To be honest most places like this are devoted exclusively to mocking the Bible and religion. Me - I'm a Bible student who hates religion. My position is usually to try and teach the Bible to atheists so that they have a better understanding of it and if they are unreceptive I try and understand why and give my two cents.
Clearly this one is not dedicated to what you say, as you are here. Further, I don't mock the bible, I am trying to learn about it. I would be glad to learn more about the bible if you would teach me- but the way you do it now is very presumptive- you present what you believe is right without explaining or backing up what you mean, which doesn't help me at all.
