RE: Why do we need morals?
May 13, 2013 at 2:21 pm
(This post was last modified: May 13, 2013 at 2:22 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(May 13, 2013 at 1:57 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Well, life is innate, and the desire to live is (usually) innate. If it is not of value to another, then by their own system, you need not value their life,If -your- life is not valuable to them - this says nothing as to whether or not -their- life is valuable to them, whether or not they extend value to your life based upon the value they assign to their own is an issue that touches on hypocrisy or reciprocity ( a whole host of unspokens, really), not directly upon whether or not they value their own.
Quote:Fair enough. Perhaps I should have said not that certain things are considered human rights, but rather than the justification for considering them as such is self-evident, whereas the justification for property would require at least some explanation.I haven't seen any self evident rights, I've seen people claim them, but in each and every case -some explanation is required-, to me, anyway.
Quote: I strongly agree with the bolded section. One would think that this extension comes from empathy, which is usually seen as innate, but I suppose that you are probably right in saying that whether or not something is innate does not necessarily reflect whether or not it is moral. (As for assigning little value to the lives of others, this is just a selfish double standard)As a little sidenote, I see empathy as an offshoot of self-interest. We imagine -ourselves- in the shoes of another and what -we- might feel exposed to what they have been exposed to and then reach some conclusion as to how it might affect -us-. Perhaps that's why I find the idea of saying "I don;t want x done to me, so I won't do it to you, because I can reasonably infer the consequences of doing x to you would be that x could be done to me in return."
Quote:Perhaps some confusion I have had is that when I say "objective morals" I mean something supported by good reasons, rather than some magical set in stone code of laws.Those stone tablet laws are subjective as well, in that different stone tablets have upon them different scribblings - specific to the peoples who did the scribbling.
Quote:When one asks what constitutes good reasons, it becomes trickier. We know objectively both that animals are capable of suffering (which, from our experience, is a bad thing to happen to someone), and that organisms tend to innately value their lives. Other than these...it gets messy.But...we don't "know objectively" what constitutes suffering, or why it is to be avoided...we don't know, objectively, how a life is valued and upon what metrics, or any means of deciding between two opposed metrics or values which to favor except by preference or by stated goal. I don't think it gets messy, I think that it starts that way and just keeps getting messier the farther we go - but I don;t think that this is a problem.
To put it another way. Coming up with a solution for a complex problem doesn't have to be clean - it would be nice, but it isn't required. A good example, between the two of us, is that since I;m just shooting for a goal our different ways of deciding that something is wrong are unimportant to me. The floor is littered with mess...but so long as we hit that target, I don't care. I'd say "whatever reason or intuition floats your boat is a-ok by me so long as we're going to reach this goal". People can opt out, of course, but then I no longer extend all of those courtesies and "rights" (which might explain why I'm such a pacifist as a civvy while having been a very eager combatant).
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!