Why do we need morals?

[The Grand Nudger]

I suppose that is true. If they don't value anyone's life but their won, society will disintegrate, but there could still be the devaluing of human life in a tribalistic sense (us vs. them) that wouldn't destroy societies internally. If only people could see the "us" as all of humanity. Maybe they will someday...and we will be united in our racism against space aliens.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - it's high time that the rest of the universe felt the cold boot of human oppression.

Well, I suppose in the sense that the concept of rights must be explained, yes. The value of life seems self-evident (at least from the perspective of organisms), but framing it in the context of a right takes an additional step.

I think that maybe you're conflating the notion of value with a bioloical imperative. Our biological imperatives don't, in and of themselves, confer any objective value. The cheetah and the gazelle wish to have words with you as to whose biological imperatives confer more value to whose respective behaviours.

That may very well be the case.

Well, I mean, if pressed, it's the case for me, but again I don;t think of it that way every second of every day - at least not consciously. I like to ponder true altruism, unprofitable empathy, and behaviors otherwise pointed at as decidedly not self interested, it;s just that when you really get down to the brass tacks, self interest never seems as far away as one might hope.

Well, I was referring to one that was somehow magically perfect. Not that it could really exist...

Objectively true by brute force of powerful supernatural incantations. Idiotic notion, isn't it?

Well, when I say "objective", I'm not referring to any objective metric per se, but rather...
Maybe I should use a different word...it's just that when I hear "subjective" I instantly think that is synonymous with arbitrary, for some reason. Maybe these theists are getting to me...

Meh, maybe, that's their usual equivocation between the terms and what they imagine follows (the idea is to get you to swallow some bullshit about a term or claim that you find unpalatable in the hopes that you will then reject it - you see, as wish thinkers themselves..they know you're a wish thinker to your core as well..and they aim to exploit that). If something is subjective it would, by definition, not be arbitrary. If it's subjective it has to refer to something, the "subject". Nevertheless, subjective and arbitrary are often used interchangeably.

Yes, I agree. The method for figuring right from wrong is not defined by any objective metric. If this is what is meant by "subjective", then I would agree to that. The only thing I wonder about is the goal of which you speak. Surely, one would think, there is some way that has at least a little objectivity by which we can determine how close we are to the goal (reasoning out a good moral rule) we are.

Stated and well defined goals are pretty objective - the way to reach that goal may not be though. In my estimation working out what is right and what is wrong is very objective - even if the goal is subjective. I accept that I start with a preference, a potentionally irrational conjecture- what I do from there, that's what interests me. I agree, that if we could agree on a goal it would be much easier from there. We actually see the inklings of this in the whole divine reward song and dance. To achieve the goal of the grace of a god- people are entreated to do x, y, and z. The trouble is that the goal itself was trash, and how doing x y and z was supposed to achieve that goal (that could not be quantified) was then and remains to this very day...a complete mystery. I blame this on the people who wrote the stories..lol.

But objective tools (i.e. utilitarianism, the golden rule, etc.) are applied subjectively (i.e. the decision of which tool to use is not objective).

Yep, can't help but be ourselves when we go about trying to get something done. That's why I don't demand detachment from subjectivity or any peculiarly human quirk if we wanted to go about giving this shit another try in a more intentional way