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Talking to your family about being an Atheist
#20
RE: Talking to your family about being an Atheist
(June 7, 2013 at 4:27 am)ideologue08 Wrote: No problem.

1) Yes, it means “corruption in the land” and can also be translated as “mischief”. What this means according to the vast majority of the scholars is any grievous act of violence which is deemed to be worthy of the death penalty (such as rape, armed robbery etc.) or waging war against the State or any act intended to undermine the law of the land (incitement to wage war against the State for example). If you look at the Hanbali school of thought for example, as exemplified by some of the laws of Saudi Arabia, you can see this in action because Saudi Arabia considers drug trafficking/human trafficking/armed robbery/rape all to be part of “mischief” and so all of these have the death penalty. It has also been primarily used to mean rebels waging war on the State.

2) I don’t know the opinion of Ibn Kathir, but he did report from Ibn Abbas and others that the verse only applies to Muslims yes. But he also reported from Ibn Abbas’ students that it applies generally all of mankind, which is also the majority opinion as far as I’m aware. There’s a principle in interpreting the Qur’an that verses are always interpreted generally unless there are specific evidences which qualifies them and makes them exclusive. In this case, I have no idea what the evidence is exactly which makes the verse only applicable to Muslims, so the safer opinion is that it is a general verse.

3) 5:33 does not state that. 5:33 states that those who wage war on Allah and His Messenger and also spread corruption in the land, the only punishment that is befitting for them is that they are executed or crucified or have their limbs cut from the opposite sides or that they are expelled from the country. This is similar to verse 8:67 when Allah rebuked the Prophet for taking the prisoners alive from the battle of Badr, when in fact they deserved to be executed for waging war against Allah and His Messenger and spreading corruption in the land.

4) No, and I know of no scholar that has ever said this, with the exception of possibly Ibn Hazm al Andalusi, the great Spanish scholar. He was a war hawk, there’s no question about that, and his interpretation of fighting for Islam is the most far-reaching, he declared all of the verses that call for peace with Non-Muslims abrogated (he also declared the most number of verses abrogated out of any scholar of Islam, over 200 verses abrogated according to Ibn Hazm). Ibn Hazm, was of course entitled to his own opinion, even though the overwhelming majority of the scholars disagreed with him, he was also a product of his own civilization, and there’s no doubt that his opinion was influenced by the violence between the Christians and Muslims in Spain. So, the clear-cut majority all say that it has not been abrogated, and I’m not aware of any scholar of the modern era ever say this.

5) Never. It can be said on the basis of 2:256. The early Muslim conquests were fought for a variety of reasons, such as the fact of a lack of peace treaty between states, cross-border incursions resulting in all-out war, saving the oppressed, pre-emptive strikes etc. etc. That’s really a matter for the historians to deal with, this isn’t really a theological point.

6) It was revealed to Muhammad to fight those who still opposed him. It clearly is not meant to be in force today lol, I’ve not heard of any scholar who said this.
Thanks for taking the time to answer. I don't intend to argue any points, mostly I just wanted to hear your opinion as a Muslim and as someone who has studied the sources. I'm not a fan of any religion, but I do think it's good to know generally what they say.
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Messages In This Thread
RE: Talking to your family about being an Atheist - by Zarith - June 7, 2013 at 2:39 pm

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