In a world without God...

[Drich]

A copy of a Copy in any honest person's language is a fake.

What does that make the Bible you read every day, which is a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a tale told word-of-mouth for centuries after it was taken from neighboring cultures and modified? And that's probably being extremely generous.

Do you not know how the bible is translated? Remember the thread we had on the 4th century bible just a week or so ago? If you bothered to follow my link it list each and every difference between that bible and the one we use. Contextually they are identical. Remember the bible was compiled in the 3rd century so we have a span of less than 100 years seperating the first hand written compilation, to the one that supports what we read today.

You knelt before you knew, and you confirmed your own bias.

If I submitted before my Idea of God, but found out that my idea of God was wrong and changed my idea of God to fit the one I was being shown how does that change signify bias?

You invented your own version of God rather than having had one invented for you, as I did. That doesn't really change the invented nature of your god.

One that just so happens to turn it's back on conventional knoweledge of God and favors a biblical picture.

It took you ten years to find a church which taught a version of Christianity which confirmed your bias.

I needed 10 years in the wilderness (much like Paul spent before he started his ministry) before I could start my work with them. I needed to know God before I could teach God.
The fact that we teach the same picture of God without our paths ever crossing before, Speaks to the desire and dedication that both the church and I have to repersent the God of the bible.

Still do not see a single element of this story that makes it compelling.

Even if you did you would find a reason to explain it away so you would not be forced to act or feel bad for not acting.

I will consider a relationship with God when he makes his presence obvious and impossible to deny or be interpreted as anything but what he is.

At that point it will be too late. For Christ tells us of that day when every knee will bow and every toungue will confess that Christ is Lord. But again God's offer will have expired.

Your standards of what constitutes knowledge are poor enough to convince you to dedicate your life to a runaway fantasy. Again, I don't trust my own senses as much as you do, which is ironic considering which of us places more value upon the material world.

How can one say he can not trust himself to gather his own data from his own senses if he is not brain washed to only receive data and understanding if it does not first pass through the filter of his peers and what they think is knoweledge?

The creator of the universe should not hide from me if he wants me to think he is anything more than words in a book. He must not have made me stupid enough to find that acceptable.

Your pride in your peer approved education has identified Humility before God as 'stupidity.' No God did not make you stupid... You can finish that line of thought on your own.

The God of the bible is a reprehensible character I would never worship even if it did exist. I would refuse him out of principle and respect for the human race.

Which is The choice we have been given over to make.

Beings invisible to me are giving me no opportunities. He needs to manifest as he is claimed to have done in the Old Testament, at the very least.

OT rules, means OT rules. Is that what you really want? I know I have done things that would require Death as punishment for my sins. What about you?

Again, I need more than that. What you say God has given is insufficient.

More is avaiable if you goto God for it. Nothing is avaiable if you command God to entertain you.

Is it not his purpose to establish a meaningful relationship with men who love him heart and soul?

No.
His purpose is to do whatever He wills.

In that will He has made a provision that allows us the ablity to choose whether or not we want to spend eternity with Him.

He is more powerful and capable than I am. It is upon him to make the effort.

Make a relationship possiable is Him making the effort.

Even if I didn't A/S/K precisely according to scripture, could he not tell that my heart was genuine?

But it's not. By your fruit/unwillingness to bend your knee you know it is not genuine. For if your heart was truly genuine there would be humility, Humility in this instance would have you do whatever God asks. What you have in place of Humility is Pride. Pride says God must personally convince me or worse yet convince the system of education in which I place more stock in than God. What is our greatest command? To love God with all of our being. You love humanity (as per your comment above) and you love your system of peer approved education (as per your comment above) more than you love God. If you love these things More than you love God then your heart is not pure.

There was a period of time when I really wanted what you have, wanted it as much as I've ever wanted anything.

I found that people want to be where I am, they just do not want to take the long and tretrous road to get here. (Not that I am where I need to be, Iam just headed in the right direction) Of which the first part of that journey is to bend that knee.

If your God is real, then all I got was "too bad". Not a single sign, hint, or even subtle encouragement. Just silence.

I think we talked about this before. With you, at some point you were given a small measure of the Holy Spirit, and then you were given an oppertunity to be faithful to what you have been given. You choose to serve self (Go after what you wanted) rather than put it on the line and serve God. So what you had been given began to be taken away. Till there was nothing left.

How can you make a choice about where you want to spend eternity without considering the rewards of heaven and the horrors of hell, when those rewards and horrors are all that defines the difference between the two?

When you see or experience the true Glory of God even for the briefest of moments nothing else matters. (Not even any personal objections you may have about slavery or the nature of the God you serve/crimes against humanity as you pointed out) You are consumed by the desire to be with God.

As satan's example points out, eternity is a long time and at some point Pride will get the better of you. So what is the solution? Put the people who are to make a desision in a place where their hearts have first say in what they decide, which means an inital blindness to the Horrors of Hell and the Glory of God. Otherwise the hearts desision will take a back seat to fear and reward.

If God wanted man to make a choice about him without considering those things, he should have never made the promises and threats.

You mean God should not let us know of the realities of eternity and the desision we are to make?

He should have simply invited you to accept him, if you wanted, with no punishment for saying no and no reward for saying yes, other than the pleasure of his company and presence in your life.

This is all that I see.
The reward is have Jesus over for dinner once a month and the 'punishment' is no punishment at all. It is what people decide they want for themselves when they can not worship a crimes against humanity God. Hell is only a punishiment from the perspective of those who want to be in Heaven. Remember Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels choose Hell over heaven. Why? Because Heaven was the real Hell for them.

Heaven and Hell make it impossible to make that choice without poisoning the well with personal considerations. Does that not make sense?

On the religious view of Heaven and Hell does this. Once you get past the selling points of Heaven or the fear of Hell then you begin to see them for what they are. A place with God and a place without God.

to illustrate this point I use to ask: If for some reason in the past the descriptions for Heaven and Hell were confused (Heaven being a firey pit but God lived there, and Hell was to be what we think to be paradise but no God.) would you still want to goto Heaven (the firey pit) just to be with God?

Once you know the true glory of God, then your surroundings mean nothing. Heaven is where God is no matter what that may look like. For we are made with one purpose to Serve (As sons and daughters) God. When we finally place ourselves in that role we truly can be happy and content.

Or, are the promises of heaven and hell just a trick to weed out everyone who would consider the ramifications of either so that can eliminate them from consideration (as they are thinking of themselves and their own fates more than of God)?

No. God does not need tricks and test to tell Him anything, He already knows.
Any and all test we find in this world are place here for one purpose, that is so we may learn and grow our understanding of our true seleves and to learn and grow in the wisdom of God.

I never needed promises. Even as a Christian, I never gave much thought to the afterlife (I was in my early 20s, who does think much about death in their 20s?). I can say, honestly, that I was not motivated by considerations of the afterlife as much as most Christians I know. The church I attended most spoke a lot more of the here and now, the companionship and the guidance in this life, what I was missing and what I needed. And, what I never ended up getting. You may find it difficult to believe any of this because of my attitude, but the reason I have such an attitude is because, whether or not I did it right, I did it with honest intentions, and I got nothing. So, either intentions mean less to God than following precise instructions, or there's no one on the other end of the line.

I have no doubt in your complete sincerity. You would not be talking about it now if that were not the case.

but understand sincerity is not the whole picture of what God is looking for. Yes sincerity is apart of that picture but there is a greater element that encapsulates the sincerity need and goes much deeper into our selves so we can give God All that He is looking to get from us.

What God wants from us is humility. With in true and complete Humility there is a sincerity that goes well beyond question. True Humility put sincerity and desire into action. This is what God wants and if we can find the faith to ask God for this humilty we will receive it. Just know thatinorder to receive humility we must first give up our pride, either willingly or by trial. It all depends on your heart, on what this process will take. If you do find yourself in the middle in a harsh trial, know God is with you the whole way, even if you can not see Him yet.

Once you been placed in a position of humility, God will lift you up.

I consider it up to me to decide what answers I need and which I do not. And, if God is open to questions, why did he not answer mine in a way he knew I would need them answered?

Maybe because you did not Ask the way He told you to A/S/K.

It takes no strength to submit. Slaves submit.

Indeed, slave submit because they have been broken. We are in a position to elect to be broken. It take tremoundous strength to not only elect this process but to endure it. especially if one has a hard heart.

My only question is the most important one: why does the infinitely-powerful creator of all things feel the need to hide himself from his creation?

To give the creation an oppertunity to make an uninfluenced choice.

Perhaps my atheism is the answer he carved on my heart. As irrational as so many aspects of your god are, maybe your god answered my question with "I never existed".

Perhaps.