Quote:Let me elaborate a bit. What does it even mean to "exist" "spacelessly and timelessly"? Those seem antithetical to any coherent meaning of "to exist" as we use the phrase. If something is 'spaceless', it by definition takes up no space, yes? And given I'm (cautiously) a nominalist, this seems to be describing the opposite of what it means to exist.To be 'spaceless' is to exist unhindered by space.
Secondly, if something is timeless (and changeless) in what sense does it make sense to speak of it acting?
And what is "immaterial" even mean in the context of an attribute of a thing? And how do people like Craig even get to the cause being a... being in the first place?
To be 'timeless' is to exist unhindered by time. That is the reason that a timeless thing cannot change in nature (a better term for 'changeless' here is 'immutable').
The actions of the thing being mentioned are spoken of as perceived by people. For instance, the God of the Bible would not have waited to part the Red Sea, but the Israelites of the Exodus would have seen Him perform the action around 2000 B.C.
Quote:Lastly, that analyais can - I think - be shown to be nonsensical. I mean, if the cause of space, time, matter and energy, when analyzed, is therefore known not to be those 4 things, I could just as 'validly' run the following argument:The inventor of the hammer made his tool without using a hammer, because he didn't need one.
Me BSing Wrote:P1) Every human that is born has a cause for its existence.
P2) I - a human - was born.
P3) Therefore I had a cause for my existence.
And when you analyze what it means to be the cause of bringing a human into existence, that would lead to it being an unconscious, faceless, spineless, [Insert other random Non-Human attributes here]...
Help meh understand. ;;_;;
The forces that made planet Earth did not have Earth when they made it, because planet Earth didn't exist yet. They did not need planet Earth to make planet Earth, and they did not need planet Earth to exist.
My mother didn't need my infant body to use to give birth to me with. Mostly because that would be disgusting.
A God wouldn't need flowers, people, the Sun, the Milky Way, space, or time to put these things into being.
Thank you.