Why does god want to cut off women's hands?

[John V]

Well then, it's lucky that there are more people that exist than just drug dealers and rapists and serial killers, isn't it?

Not necessarily. Considering pollution, global warming, etc., the world might be better off with far fewer of us, or none at all.

And it's equally lucky that these people can see the negative effects of drugs, rape and murder, and band together because they don't want to be subject to that, no?

Again, the point is that desires do not necessarily generate rights. Here you acknowledge that yourself.

Such as?

Such as people who desire things which you want to forbid. You claim happiness as a basis for rights, but only when you agree with the things that make people happy. Therefore, ad hoc.

I can't support the idea that society self corrects? What is it that you think changes to the laws are?

Changes. Again, saying that society is correcting itself implies that there is an objectively ideal state of society. You haven't shown that.

No, it assumes a set of objective facts that we can know to be true: life is preferable to death, pain is not preferable, etc etc. I hope I don't need to explain why those are so.

Considering that there's always a war somewhere or other, and science is continually inventing better ways for us to kill each other, yes, you do need to explain these things.

We are living in a universe that adheres to physical laws, and so we can come up with a set of stimuli that are unpleasant to us, and that we'd wish to avoid; even the drug addict doesn't enjoy the downsides of drug addiction, they're just trapped in a cycle. Rapists probably wouldn't want to be raped. Serial killers probably wouldn't want to be murdered. This is the basis of our system of laws, and our concept of good and bad; why is it that hell is depicted as a place filled with fire? Because fire burns us. Why is "thou shalt not kill," a commandment? Because murder is bad.

Sure, slave owners don't want to be slaves themselves. So what? Look at nature. There are plenty of species in which the stronger take more than their equal share of food, mates, etc. And even to the extent that you are correct, the principle only applies within the group. We wage war on outsiders if it's in our interest. Biblically the slaves were mostly outsiders.

The ideal is to try and come up with a set of social rules for a community, without knowing what you will be when you enter it. Equality and fairness are necessary because they are the only way that we can be sure the worm won't turn on us and the people we've oppressed/hurt won't do the same in turn, because we've deemed those behaviors unacceptable.

That may be your ideal. Some people are less risk-averse.

Is it an imperfect system? You bet. Does that mean it's untrue?

It's neither true nor untrue. It's opinion.

So if your entire family was transported back to that time, you'd be okay with these things happening to you and yours? If not, why would you accept it from them?

If you had been born into a slave-owning family, do you think you'd feel exactly as you do about slavery now?

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yes, sorry to disappoint... my knowledge of the bible is somewhat limited... much like my knowledge of the qu'ran and the vedas...

Are you wanting to tell me that this bible contains not only the messages from this god, but also the means by which the messages were conveyed?

Moses and the burning bush, various people having dreams, Paul taken up to heaven are examples of the means being stated. Sometimes we're not specifically told.

Are these methods trustworthy?

That's a matter of opinion.

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missluckie, you granted that for purposes of this discussion:
"Let's assume for sake of argument that you're right, god exists, and god created the system now in place."

The god of the Bible has superior mental ability to ours, so he has rights over us.

You stated this, I asked for proof of intelligence.

Ability to create a universe ex nihilo indicates greater intelligence than ours. Seems pretty obvious.

I do.

So let's see it.

I'm more interested in you explaining why you believe there is intelligent design. If everything was created by god,

You already granted for purposes of this discussion that everything was created by god.