RE: Can raw energy create Order
September 16, 2013 at 5:04 pm
(This post was last modified: September 16, 2013 at 5:22 pm by Mister Agenda.)
(September 16, 2013 at 12:48 pm)John V Wrote:(September 16, 2013 at 8:38 am)Esquilax Wrote: Do you understand how two concepts can be related without being connected?No.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/related?s=t
re·lat·ed
adjective
1.
associated; connected.
You are right. They are connected. Both concern biology as an historical science and both probably depend on natural selection. Those are indeed connections.
(September 16, 2013 at 12:48 pm)John V Wrote: Evolution surely depends on abiogenesis.
What do you think would happen to the theory of biological evolution if it turned out natural causes was not the explanation for the origin of life on earth?
(September 16, 2013 at 12:48 pm)John V Wrote: Are you saying that abiogenesis is entirely confirmed and factual?
No, he did not.
(September 16, 2013 at 12:48 pm)John V Wrote: You did call it a theory.
No, he did not. He said it had 'theoretical underpinnings'. Abiogenesis is still in the hypothesis stage.
(September 16, 2013 at 12:48 pm)John V Wrote: It would depend on the abiogenesis model. If the model involves something that's self-replicating, then abiogenesis and evolution are part of the same continuum, with a somewhat arbitrary dividing line called "life" drawn in somewhere. If you're intellectually honest.
A time traveler could have deposited the first life form in a paradoxical loop and it would have profound implications for abiogenesis, but the theory of evolution wouldn't need to be changed at all (physics might be in trouble). The only way you can be intellectually honest and not grasp why evolution does not depend on abiogenesis is to just not have the mental equipment to understand it.
(September 16, 2013 at 4:50 pm)John V Wrote: You reject creationism and panspermia just moves abiogenesis to a different location. So, yes, evolution is dependent on abiogenesis.
I think I see the 'disconnect' you're having. Everyone else is talking about the hypotheses of abiogenesis and the theory of evolution, but that's not what you're talking about at all.
You're talking about the occurrence of the origin of life and the evolution of life thereafter. In that sense, yes, you can't have evolution without life, the process of biological evolution can't occur until you've got life.
But the process of evolution does not depend on hypotheses about abiogenesis being right. It could be magic and evolution will get along fine.
(September 16, 2013 at 12:48 pm)John V Wrote: Use the word consistently with its claimed meaning and I won't be able to call you out on it.
It's a tricky word to use, with it having a colloquial and scientific sense. Have you considered attempting to understand what he means from the context in good faith, or are you determined to make a fuss every time?
(September 16, 2013 at 12:48 pm)John V Wrote: You're likely having trouble wording it because "life" is surprisingly difficult to define.
Yep.
