(September 29, 2013 at 7:11 am)bennyboy Wrote: Okay, so in a nutshell, you feel that there's only one past, and it's set in stone. Let's assume this is true, and there aren't goofy little quarky things happening (like QM particles getting sent slightly into the past) which throw this fairly apparent truth into doubt.If you pick a Mars Bar over a Reese’s, the existence or behavior of anti-matter doesn’t change the decision in the slightest. Not sure what that has to do with anything, really.
(September 29, 2013 at 7:11 am)bennyboy Wrote: Fair enough. Now, let's look at the practical application of your idea: understanding something in the present, or predicting the future. If your viewpoint has any more merit than the concept of free will, then show how it applies to real-life situations.
I’m sorry but I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. Also, you seem to be under the impression that free-will is self-evident because you really feel like its true. Have you ever seen an optical illusion? If somebody is convinced that their experience of the image they are seeing is the right one, then there is very little that can be said to convince them otherwise.
(September 29, 2013 at 7:11 am)bennyboy Wrote: In the case of free will, I have plenty of applications: I can sit in the candy store, hummm and hawww for a while, and decide which candy bar I want. Your philosophical assertion that I was foreordained by a determinist process to choose the Mars Bar, rather than the peanut butter cups, really doesn't add anything useful: only AFTER I've made my choice can you smugly announce "You had to make that choice, because your thinking is a purely deterministic process."There’s nothing smug about it. The underlying neurophysiological processes in your brain that are conditioned to desire candy, that develop a preference, or a skepticism, are the determinants. The conscious experience of the ultimate outcome creates the illusion of your conscious mind being the author of the effect. There is not a single shred of evidence you can bring to the table that supports that as being true. In fact, studies have shown instances of decisions being made moments, sometimes seconds, before your conscious mind is even aware of them.
(September 29, 2013 at 7:11 am)bennyboy Wrote: Yes, some things function so coursely that they can be predicted. For example, bouncing billiard balls on a well-crafted table. Fine. So predict what major my 9 year-old daughter will major in when (if?) she goes to university. I'll grant you the Godly power to know the exact state of every QM particle on Earth. You still won't be able to do it.
Again, not applicable to what I’m saying. You seem to be confused with fatalism. I’m not saying that everything is preordained in the manner that you are describing.
Take your billiard ball example:
Free-Will suggests that the billiard ball could behave differently than what is prescribed by the laws of nature. The billiard ball is going to behave in accordance with the properties of a billiard ball. Those properties are the determinants. Your mind has different determinants that dictate its behavior: Genetics, experiences, biases, etc. The choices it makes are products of those determinants and can only be altered by altering the determinants. The decisions it makes are determined. They are not pre-ordained or set in stone on some master log in the universe (at least, that’s not what I’m saying). I’m saying that the notion of free-will stems from the belief that we are the conscious author of our thoughts. This is false. We associate our identities with a particular channel of information, but if we are truly honest with ourselves, the origin of the information flowing in that channel is a mystery, and the determinants of its effects do not begin in consciousness.
(September 29, 2013 at 7:11 am)bennyboy Wrote: You say that, in looking back, determinism is obvious. But that is rarely usefulUnderstanding the true nature of the mind, and exactly what determinants impact certain behaviors is one of the most important tenets of psychology. It’s quite useful.