RE: Challenge to atheists: I find your lack of faith disturbing!
October 24, 2013 at 3:33 pm
(This post was last modified: October 24, 2013 at 3:38 pm by MitchBenn.)
OP: citing the Bible agreeing with the Bible as evidence that the Bible is true is what we call Circular Logic. Why do you believe it? Because it's true! Why do you think it's true? Because I believe it! And so on, and so on.
There is NOT, as apologists like to claim, a welter of evidence to support the historicity of Jesus. There just isn't. This was a period in history in which records WERE kept, and NOWHERE other than in the Bible is the Jesus story mentioned. Sorry. Yes, there is apparently a mention of a rabbi named Yeshua in the writings of Josephus, but a. the authenticity of this passage is far from established (some historians dismiss it as having been inserted into the text some centuries later by Christian propagandists ) and b. so what? That's like historians 2000 years from now reading articles about BRUCE Springsteen and concluding that since there really were people called Bruce, then Batman was a historical character.
So no, we DON'T all concur that there really was a Jesus - although there may well have been - nor do we concur that he claimed divinity - though again, he may well have done. We're not dismissing these propositions out of hand but if you're seeking to class them as FACTS from which you can extrapolate other facts, then no. Sorry.
Of course, this is probably futile since the probability is that like most theist OPs on this forum, you won't return to discuss the objections to your proposition.
Damn good point, and a more recent example: the James Bond books, and the earlier James Bond MOVIES (as well as their countless imitators) were created during the Cold War period, but glamourise and romanticise the Cold War beyond all recognition. Something doesn't have to have receded into history to become a fanciful legend.
There is NOT, as apologists like to claim, a welter of evidence to support the historicity of Jesus. There just isn't. This was a period in history in which records WERE kept, and NOWHERE other than in the Bible is the Jesus story mentioned. Sorry. Yes, there is apparently a mention of a rabbi named Yeshua in the writings of Josephus, but a. the authenticity of this passage is far from established (some historians dismiss it as having been inserted into the text some centuries later by Christian propagandists ) and b. so what? That's like historians 2000 years from now reading articles about BRUCE Springsteen and concluding that since there really were people called Bruce, then Batman was a historical character.
So no, we DON'T all concur that there really was a Jesus - although there may well have been - nor do we concur that he claimed divinity - though again, he may well have done. We're not dismissing these propositions out of hand but if you're seeking to class them as FACTS from which you can extrapolate other facts, then no. Sorry.
Of course, this is probably futile since the probability is that like most theist OPs on this forum, you won't return to discuss the objections to your proposition.
(October 24, 2013 at 10:02 am)Captain Colostomy Wrote: Bah. I haven't the patience to multi quote the OP.
I would address one issue...stating that 55CE is 'too early for legend'. Says who??? Anyone familiar with the outlaw West(US), is also familiar with how the James Gang was immortalized in dime store novels even as the gang still was operating. The stories romanticised the lawlessness because it made for sales, not because it was reporting the truth. I see no reason to consider the Jesus story as any different. It actually smacks strongly of legend, and has Jesse James to compare itself with. No doubt there are scores of legends assembled similarly.
Damn good point, and a more recent example: the James Bond books, and the earlier James Bond MOVIES (as well as their countless imitators) were created during the Cold War period, but glamourise and romanticise the Cold War beyond all recognition. Something doesn't have to have receded into history to become a fanciful legend.
