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Monist vs. Dualist Experiment?
#31
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment?
(October 29, 2013 at 6:58 pm)bennyboy Wrote: The difference would be that the zombie only processes information, while I both process and subjectively experience it.

Can you show this difference to be relevant?

More to the point - can you show that "subjectively experiencing" is qualitatively different than "processing information" rather than being a specific form of it? Or can you show the absence of "subjective experience" within a zombie?

(October 29, 2013 at 6:58 pm)bennyboy Wrote: The simplest observation of one's own experience shows that theres "I" the thinker/observer, and then ideas or physical objects which I think about or observe. The problem with both physical monism (with mind) or substance dualism (physical objects + mind) is that they BOTH fail to reconcile this subject/object duality.

The fundamental error of dualism - which is the same one you commit in the rest of the argument - is rooted in this proposition. That the 'simplest observation of one's own experience shows that there's an "I"' - it tells you nothing about that "I"'s metaphysical nature. You don't know whether that "I" is a fundamental entity or a composite one. You don't know what it is made of. You don't know anything about its nature other than that it observes.

Dualism makes the mistake of regarding it eliminatively and as a fundamental entity. It sees that "I" is not the body or the brain or thoughts or feelings etc - so it must be something separate from all that. And given that the existence of "I" is a brute fact, it must also be a fundamental and irreducible entity. These two suppositions result in the assumption of a secondary, non-physical, irreducible substance called "mind". But given that the assumptions are invalid, the conclusions regarding the nature of mind become invalid as well.


(October 29, 2013 at 6:58 pm)bennyboy Wrote: In substance dualism, my question is: how is it possible for mind and matter to interact? How, for example, does one move? What is the bridge? It seems to me there must be something which is partly matter and partly mind. If so, that duality is collapsed anyway, since there's now mind/matter, which is pretty much the monist's description of the brain.

Before asking that question, what you should be concerned about is "what is mind?". Without knowing what the bridge is being built between, talking about the bridge itself is pointless.


(October 29, 2013 at 6:58 pm)bennyboy Wrote: In the case of physical monism, the problem is that science takes as its target observable properties of matter. Brain function is observable, but the mind isn't. Mind is not an observable property of matter, nor is it a necessary explanation of how any material system behaves. It doesn't MATTER (snerk) whether a brain has a mind: the mechanism from eye, to brain, to behavior can be traced along physical structures without reference to qualia.

'Observable' is what sense? In science, we infer the existence of an entity from the effects it causes - so, in that way, mind is very much observable from the effect called behavior. And given that certain behaviors - such as learning - require the existence of a mind, it does become the necessary explanation for that particular behavior.
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Messages In This Thread
Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 28, 2013 at 3:42 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Chas - October 28, 2013 at 4:15 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Zazzy - October 28, 2013 at 4:23 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Jackalope - October 28, 2013 at 4:36 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by freedomfromforum - October 28, 2013 at 4:24 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 28, 2013 at 4:31 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Mister Agenda - October 28, 2013 at 4:32 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 28, 2013 at 7:25 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 28, 2013 at 8:11 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 28, 2013 at 9:17 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 28, 2013 at 10:09 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by max-greece - October 28, 2013 at 4:46 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 28, 2013 at 5:02 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 28, 2013 at 5:35 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 28, 2013 at 7:43 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - October 28, 2013 at 8:51 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 30, 2013 at 8:46 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 30, 2013 at 10:16 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 30, 2013 at 10:43 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - October 31, 2013 at 8:42 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Whateverist - November 6, 2013 at 12:04 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - November 7, 2013 at 10:05 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Zazzy - November 7, 2013 at 10:17 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 7, 2013 at 10:35 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Whateverist - November 7, 2013 at 11:54 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Cato - November 8, 2013 at 12:10 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 28, 2013 at 8:55 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 28, 2013 at 11:25 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 28, 2013 at 11:36 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 29, 2013 at 11:01 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 29, 2013 at 6:58 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 30, 2013 at 4:51 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 30, 2013 at 8:25 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 31, 2013 at 4:45 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 8:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 9:50 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 11:44 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 12:15 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 12:24 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 12:44 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 31, 2013 at 5:13 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 7:35 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 7:55 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 1, 2013 at 3:20 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 1, 2013 at 10:45 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 5, 2013 at 4:52 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 5, 2013 at 9:29 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - November 5, 2013 at 10:18 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 5, 2013 at 7:13 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 5, 2013 at 10:01 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 6, 2013 at 11:18 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 7, 2013 at 6:43 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 7, 2013 at 8:10 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 8, 2013 at 5:32 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 8, 2013 at 7:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 16, 2013 at 1:51 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 16, 2013 at 7:47 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 17, 2013 at 5:26 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 17, 2013 at 7:24 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 17, 2013 at 10:52 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 18, 2013 at 7:45 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 19, 2013 at 7:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 19, 2013 at 6:38 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 21, 2013 at 10:00 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 21, 2013 at 11:48 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 21, 2013 at 12:12 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 21, 2013 at 2:18 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 21, 2013 at 3:19 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 22, 2013 at 5:08 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 22, 2013 at 9:38 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 23, 2013 at 8:32 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 23, 2013 at 11:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 24, 2013 at 7:38 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 25, 2013 at 6:30 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - November 25, 2013 at 6:44 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 26, 2013 at 7:02 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 28, 2013 at 7:21 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 30, 2013 at 7:13 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 30, 2013 at 7:54 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Chas - November 30, 2013 at 8:11 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 30, 2013 at 8:45 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Chas - November 30, 2013 at 3:00 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 30, 2013 at 1:05 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 4, 2013 at 5:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 4, 2013 at 8:12 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 4, 2013 at 9:58 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 5, 2013 at 2:51 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 5, 2013 at 3:57 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 8, 2013 at 7:47 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - November 22, 2013 at 1:40 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 23, 2013 at 7:32 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 29, 2013 at 5:04 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 29, 2013 at 6:27 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 29, 2013 at 6:41 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 29, 2013 at 7:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - October 29, 2013 at 7:13 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 29, 2013 at 7:20 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 29, 2013 at 7:29 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 29, 2013 at 7:14 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - October 29, 2013 at 12:13 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - October 31, 2013 at 12:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 2:35 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 4:33 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 6:59 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 7:10 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by StuW - October 31, 2013 at 7:59 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - October 31, 2013 at 9:06 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 31, 2013 at 9:08 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Mister Agenda - October 31, 2013 at 9:56 am
Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by I and I - November 20, 2013 at 9:20 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - November 21, 2013 at 6:30 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 21, 2013 at 7:14 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - November 23, 2013 at 3:28 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - November 26, 2013 at 6:28 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 26, 2013 at 7:12 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 26, 2013 at 7:15 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - November 26, 2013 at 9:38 pm
Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by I and I - November 26, 2013 at 10:01 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 27, 2013 at 6:16 pm
Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by I and I - November 28, 2013 at 2:05 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 4, 2013 at 4:18 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 5, 2013 at 2:21 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 5, 2013 at 7:18 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 5, 2013 at 8:16 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 5, 2013 at 8:41 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 5, 2013 at 8:49 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by The_Thinking_Theist - December 4, 2013 at 5:25 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 6, 2013 at 12:08 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 9, 2013 at 3:24 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 10, 2013 at 2:09 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 12, 2013 at 7:53 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 12, 2013 at 3:23 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 11, 2013 at 5:07 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - December 11, 2013 at 5:53 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 12, 2013 at 10:44 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 13, 2013 at 3:01 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 12, 2013 at 5:28 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - December 13, 2013 at 3:47 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 13, 2013 at 2:16 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - December 13, 2013 at 2:23 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 13, 2013 at 2:49 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - December 13, 2013 at 4:07 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 13, 2013 at 4:23 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 14, 2013 at 4:52 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 15, 2013 at 6:33 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - December 13, 2013 at 4:26 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 15, 2013 at 2:18 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - December 15, 2013 at 2:29 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - December 15, 2013 at 7:43 am

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