(November 12, 2013 at 12:19 pm)xpastor Wrote:(November 11, 2013 at 1:05 am)Godschild Wrote: No it's not, the claim was made by MsTricky, when one makes the claim one needs to explain why they believe their claim.
OK, fine. The NT is filled with fantastic stories which violate the laws of nature. It is only one of many works from that era which do the same, e.g. Herodotus, Philostratus' Life of Apollonius of Tyana, virgin birth stories about Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar and Augustus. So why should we believe that the NT is true and other tall tales from that time are false?
Why would you expect anything else, it is about God in human form, right. It is about salvation and an eternal existence with or without God. It is about the One who created all things and understands and created the laws of nature, even the creation would violate what we see as laws that can't be broken. But even though we stubbornly persist in this we can always find these laws being broken in the quantum world, right. As for those you mentioned mere mortals.
(November 11, 2013 at 1:05 am)Godschild Wrote: And that's proof of what exactly, it doesn't eliminate the apostles.
Quote:It doesn't eliminate virtually every other literate person at that time and place. Actually when we specify literate persons we do eliminate the apostles. Peter and John are specifically said to be illiterate in Acts 4:13, and this is what we would expect of all of Jesus' immediate disciples who were manual workers from Galilee.
Matthew was a tax collector, Luke a physician, Paul was very well educated. Peter, John and James were fishermen and business men. I'm not sure about the others and I know some we are not told what they did before becoming the Twelve Apostles. The scripture said they were not formally educated, they say nothing about them not being able to read. Go back to Acts 2:14-35, Peter was using scripture from Joel and David, does that seem like a man who was illiterate.
Quote:Too many Christians argue for the Bible from the basis of "it could have been thus." Could is the last refuge of the implausible. There could be a Loch Ness monster because the loch is very deep. There could be unicorns but we just haven't seen one yet. As Betrand Russell pointed out, there could be a teapot orbiting the sun in between the Earth and Mars which is just too small to be detected by our telescopes ... but the probability of its existence is negligible.
You say to many Christians argue "it could", well maybe you have been talking to those who do not try to learn, I say it did and will happen, why because I know God, I know He is real, He exists.
You know there "could" be atheist.
(November 11, 2013 at 1:05 am)Godschild Wrote: What makes you believe Ehrman knows any of them are forgeries. Forgeries where caught and eliminated, you yourself said so. Because there were forgeries you assume they found their way into the scripture, I believe they did not because all the NT lines up in it's teachings.
Quote:You talk as if Ehrman is just making up this stuff out of thin air? Ehrman got a doctorate in NT studies under Bruce Metzger who was regarded by many as the greatest NT scholar of his time. More significantly still, Ehrman started off as a fundamentalist, a graduate of Moody Bible Institute. If it was so glaringly obvious as you imagine that the NT can just be taken at face value, I'm sure he would have been happy to accept it.
No I'm saying He has a biased attitude toward scripture, just as Judas had a biased understanding of the scriptures and His teacher was Christ.
Quote:Here are his reasons for challenging two of the epistles attributed to Paul.
2 Thessalonians seems to present a totally different eschatology than 1 Thessalonians. In 1 Thess 5:2-3 (regarded as authentic) he warns "the Day of the Lord will come as a thief comes at night. When people say, 'Everything is quiet and safe,' then suddenly destruction will hit them! It will come as suddenly as the pains that come upon a woman in labor, and people will not escape." However, in 2 Thessalonians 2 he warns not to expect the end any time soon and he lists signs which must first happen:
Quote:Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to be with him: I beg you, my friends, 2 not to be so easily confused in your thinking or upset by the claim that the Day of the Lord has come. Perhaps it is thought that we said this while prophesying or preaching, or that we wrote it in a letter. 3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until the final Rebellion takes place and the Wicked One appears, who is destined to hell. 4 He will oppose every so-called god or object of worship and will put himself above them all. He will even go in and sit down in God's Temple and claim to be God.Not at all the same picture of a thief coming in the night at any moment. In fact, to me it sounds as if the author of 2 Thessalonians has been reading Revelation, which was written long after Paul.
5 Don't you remember? I told you all this while I was with you. 6 Yet there is something that keeps this from happening now, and you know what it is. At the proper time, then, the Wicked One will appear. 7 The Mysterious Wickedness is already at work, but what is going to happen will not happen until the one who holds it back is taken out of the way. 8 Then the Wicked One will be revealed, but when the Lord Jesus comes, he will kill him with the breath from his mouth and destroy him with his dazzling presence. 9 The Wicked One will come with the power of Satan and perform all kinds of false miracles and wonders, 10 and use every kind of wicked deceit on those who will perish. They will perish because they did not welcome and love the truth so as to be saved. 11 And so God sends the power of error to work in them so that they believe what is false. 12 The result is that all who have not believed the truth, but have taken pleasure in sin, will be condemned.
You are making the same mistake many Christians do when they talk about the supposed rapture. The meaning in 1st Thess. is about no one suspecting the return of Christ, just like the days of Noah no one but Noah expected the flood. Only the Christians will be ready for the second coming. 2nd Thess. gives a description of that terrible time for the unbelievers, yet it will be a glorious time for those who are raised from the grave and those who are alive and in Christ at the time. An honest question, how were you able to teach those in your church?
Quote:Most scholars are confident that Ephesians is not authentic on grounds of style and content.
This short epistle uses 116 words not found anywhere in Paul's undoubted writings. It is written in long convoluted sentences quite unlike the short choppy sentences he normally employs.
Paul dictated his letters, could it have been that the one writing down what Paul said in Ephesians was a different person, I just asking because many of Paul's letters came while he was in prison.
Quote:Paul says of himself in Ephesians that he lived "in the passions of the flesh, following its desires and senses." However, in his other writings he presents himself as a strict follower of the law, e.g, "According to the righteousness found in the Law I was blameless." (Phil. 3:6) There is also a striking contrast in the way he describes the Christian experience. In Corinthians Paul squelches the idea that the resurrection has already happened, that the Corinthians have already been raised up with Christ. However, in Ephesians that is exactly what he says: [God] "hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." (2:6)
Now I'm really confused as how you could have ever taught the scriptures. A pastor cherry picking you should know better, Phil. 3:1-11 Paul speaks of how he has no righteousness except through Christ, in verses 4-6 Paul is telling what a good no believing Jew he was, he was telling the people what a terrible life it was.
In chapter 2 Paul is not saying they are already risen, he says this is what is going to happen for the ones saved though Christ.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.