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Monist vs. Dualist Experiment?
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment?
(November 26, 2013 at 6:28 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: This reminds me of this argument:

1. Knowledge depends on significant correspondence between awareness (qualitative phenomenal experience) and cognition (physical brain processes).

2. Natural selection explains the correspondence between awareness and cognition.

3. Evolutionary processes cannot select for features that do not affect behavior.

4. If awareness supervenes on cognition, then awareness is causally inert and cannot influence behavior.

5. Thus, natural selection cannot explain the correspondence between awareness and cognition.

6. And thus, knowledge does not depend on any significant correspondence between awareness and cognition.

First error:
3. Evolutionary processes cannot select for features that do not affect behavior.

Evolutionary processes cannot select for features that do not affect survival - would be more appropriate. While behavior does affect survival, it is not the only factor that determines it.

Second error:

4. If awareness supervenes on cognition, then awareness is causally inert and cannot influence behavior.

Establishing awareness' supervenience over cognition is not sufficient to establish it as causally inert and non-influential on behavior.

Third error:

6. And thus, knowledge does not depend on any significant correspondence between awareness and cognition

Even if natural selection were unable to explain the correspondence between awareness and cognition, this conclusion would still be invalid.


(November 26, 2013 at 6:28 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Given that human consciousness is a result of evolutionary processes then you have two possibilities, neither of which square with materialism. First, if awareness is causally relevant and does affect behavior that means phenomenal properties influence physical processes from the top-down. That means phenomenal properties cannot be reduced to physical properties and the physical universe is not causally closed.

Unless the phenomenal process is a specific form of physical process in action. In which case, it is both causally relevant and reducible

(November 26, 2013 at 6:28 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: On the other hand, if evolutionary processes can select features that do not affect behavior, then it displays teleological behavior that is inconsistent with an undirected naturalistic process.

Also incorrect. Like I said, behavior is not the only criteria by which survival is determined. So, evolutionary processes can select for features without necessarily affecting behavior.

To put it in perspective, consider this:
In terms of energy consumption, the brain is a very costly organ. Almost 20-25% of your basic metabolism goes to sustain your brain. Which does not seem surprising considering all the functions going up in there.

Imagine if your brain had to process every bit of "information" its way. Imagine if every aspect of every sensory input had to be evaluated and a response generated. With the sheer quantity involved, the energy toll would've been much higher. So, having a supervising process, one that evaluates the inputs and their evaluation, would be a definite advantage. It'd allow the whole system to prioritize tasks and focus on specific inputs thus drastically reduce the overall energy requirement. That is what awareness is - a system that monitors the mental activity itself. And this is the advantage it was selected for.


On a side note - good to see an intellectual argument from you. The quality of your posts had been declining of late.
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Messages In This Thread
Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 28, 2013 at 3:42 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Chas - October 28, 2013 at 4:15 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Zazzy - October 28, 2013 at 4:23 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Jackalope - October 28, 2013 at 4:36 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by freedomfromforum - October 28, 2013 at 4:24 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 28, 2013 at 4:31 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Mister Agenda - October 28, 2013 at 4:32 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 28, 2013 at 7:25 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 28, 2013 at 8:11 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 28, 2013 at 9:17 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 28, 2013 at 10:09 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by max-greece - October 28, 2013 at 4:46 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 28, 2013 at 5:02 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 28, 2013 at 5:35 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 28, 2013 at 7:43 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - October 28, 2013 at 8:51 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 30, 2013 at 8:46 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 30, 2013 at 10:16 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 30, 2013 at 10:43 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - October 31, 2013 at 8:42 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Whateverist - November 6, 2013 at 12:04 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - November 7, 2013 at 10:05 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Zazzy - November 7, 2013 at 10:17 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 7, 2013 at 10:35 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Whateverist - November 7, 2013 at 11:54 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Cato - November 8, 2013 at 12:10 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 28, 2013 at 8:55 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 28, 2013 at 11:25 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 28, 2013 at 11:36 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 29, 2013 at 11:01 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 29, 2013 at 6:58 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 30, 2013 at 4:51 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 30, 2013 at 8:25 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 31, 2013 at 4:45 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 8:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 9:50 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 11:44 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 12:15 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 12:24 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 12:44 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 31, 2013 at 5:13 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 7:35 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 7:55 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 1, 2013 at 3:20 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 1, 2013 at 10:45 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 5, 2013 at 4:52 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 5, 2013 at 9:29 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - November 5, 2013 at 10:18 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 5, 2013 at 7:13 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 5, 2013 at 10:01 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 6, 2013 at 11:18 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 7, 2013 at 6:43 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 7, 2013 at 8:10 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 8, 2013 at 5:32 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 8, 2013 at 7:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 16, 2013 at 1:51 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 16, 2013 at 7:47 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 17, 2013 at 5:26 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 17, 2013 at 7:24 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 17, 2013 at 10:52 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 18, 2013 at 7:45 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 19, 2013 at 7:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 19, 2013 at 6:38 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 21, 2013 at 10:00 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 21, 2013 at 11:48 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 21, 2013 at 12:12 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 21, 2013 at 2:18 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 21, 2013 at 3:19 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 22, 2013 at 5:08 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 22, 2013 at 9:38 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 23, 2013 at 8:32 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 23, 2013 at 11:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 24, 2013 at 7:38 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 25, 2013 at 6:30 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - November 25, 2013 at 6:44 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 26, 2013 at 7:02 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 28, 2013 at 7:21 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 30, 2013 at 7:13 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 30, 2013 at 7:54 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Chas - November 30, 2013 at 8:11 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 30, 2013 at 8:45 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Chas - November 30, 2013 at 3:00 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 30, 2013 at 1:05 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 4, 2013 at 5:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 4, 2013 at 8:12 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 4, 2013 at 9:58 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 5, 2013 at 2:51 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 5, 2013 at 3:57 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 8, 2013 at 7:47 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - November 22, 2013 at 1:40 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 23, 2013 at 7:32 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 29, 2013 at 5:04 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 29, 2013 at 6:27 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 29, 2013 at 6:41 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 29, 2013 at 7:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - October 29, 2013 at 7:13 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 29, 2013 at 7:20 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 29, 2013 at 7:29 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 29, 2013 at 7:14 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - October 29, 2013 at 12:13 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - October 31, 2013 at 12:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 2:35 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 4:33 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 6:59 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 7:10 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by StuW - October 31, 2013 at 7:59 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - October 31, 2013 at 9:06 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 31, 2013 at 9:08 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Mister Agenda - October 31, 2013 at 9:56 am
Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by I and I - November 20, 2013 at 9:20 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - November 21, 2013 at 6:30 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 21, 2013 at 7:14 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - November 23, 2013 at 3:28 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - November 26, 2013 at 6:28 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 26, 2013 at 7:12 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 26, 2013 at 7:15 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - November 26, 2013 at 9:38 pm
Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by I and I - November 26, 2013 at 10:01 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 27, 2013 at 6:16 pm
Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by I and I - November 28, 2013 at 2:05 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 4, 2013 at 4:18 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 5, 2013 at 2:21 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 5, 2013 at 7:18 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 5, 2013 at 8:16 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 5, 2013 at 8:41 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 5, 2013 at 8:49 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by The_Thinking_Theist - December 4, 2013 at 5:25 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 6, 2013 at 12:08 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 9, 2013 at 3:24 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 10, 2013 at 2:09 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 12, 2013 at 7:53 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 12, 2013 at 3:23 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 11, 2013 at 5:07 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - December 11, 2013 at 5:53 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 12, 2013 at 10:44 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 13, 2013 at 3:01 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 12, 2013 at 5:28 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - December 13, 2013 at 3:47 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 13, 2013 at 2:16 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - December 13, 2013 at 2:23 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 13, 2013 at 2:49 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - December 13, 2013 at 4:07 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 13, 2013 at 4:23 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 14, 2013 at 4:52 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 15, 2013 at 6:33 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - December 13, 2013 at 4:26 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 15, 2013 at 2:18 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - December 15, 2013 at 2:29 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - December 15, 2013 at 7:43 am

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