Theists, are you immune to being decieved?

[Esquilax]

So you are conceding that natural laws require a creator? They cannot arise through purely natural unintelligent means? I do not believe this game is going as you initially planned because it is only proving my point (unless of course that is what you were trying to do).

You can stop dishonestly misrepresenting my metaphorical position anytime you like, Stat.

Sure it is if it is done in a logically consistent manner; you did not account for natural laws because you committed a category error which means your attempt at accounting for such laws was irrational. No such category error exists within the Christian conceptual scheme.

Didn't you see me appeal to magic? I noticed you cut that part of my (fucking fictional by the way) response out. Are you saying there's absolutely no possibility in the future that technology exists that can alter physical laws?

Yes it does, if position A asserts B and B is true but B cannot exist if position A is true then position A is false.

Except that, regardless of whether position A can currently account for B, B still demonstrably exists. You're shifting terms; even in the sentence you're responding to, it's not that B cannot exist if A is true, but that B isn't currently explained under the premises of A. Would you mind... you know, telling the truth, next time?

It did not account for natural laws though, that is the point.

Yes, it did. I just appealed to the future, in the same way you appeal to magic when you say god did it. We both provided exactly the same level of information and evidence, the difference is that while I readily accept that both explanations are fictional, you seem to be taking mine as true, and then editing out large swathes of what I said as though to hide answers I've already given.

Interesting, isn't it?

It is a problem for everyone else.

Then my time travel scenario, where I go to whatever future I need to to get whatever tech I need to do what I need to do, is a problem for you.

I did not say anything about magic.

Because "special creation" and "magic" are two different things.

You cannot even account for the notion of evidence if God did not exist. That is the entire point, you are assuming Christian theism is true by questioning Christian theism; your position is completely irrational.

If you really want to go into presuppositionalism with me, I'll happily rip the entire thing to goddamn shreds right here where everyone can see, but please do present the entire argument, and not just the bland assertion, hit and run version of it. It's tiresome.

According to whom?

According to thinking beings who aren't happy stopping at "must have been magic man!"

According to whom?

According to rationality: if you're just going to assert a cause and think that's enough, then not only is my assertion also viable, but you're also exhibiting your special pleading by demanding evidence for my claim and picking holes, but not doing the same for your own.

That’s a fallacious analogy. “Where do hotdogs come from?” “People make them.”- is a perfectly legitimate answer.

Not if, as I think the question implies, one is looking for the mechanism behind hotdog manufacture. If I wanted to know your answer, the correct question would be "who makes hotdogs?" And even then, your answer would be severely lacking in information, given that you could have answered with a list of hotdog brands, too.

This just goes to show what I'm saying: you're happy with an answer that explains nothing, so long as it matches what you already believe.

All worldviews require axioms; that’s basic epistemology. The only difference between you and me is that my presuppositions make sense of reality while yours contradict it.

And yet you're the one who envisions a world where every natural law can be suspended whenever a space wizard and his wizard goat archrival deems fit...

I will ask again, how can you make sense of immaterial natural laws in a purely material and unguided Universe?

I already told you: I time traveled.

Or hell, let's make another explanation to go for an unguided universe: Floontium, the building block, unguided material at the core of existence, randomly made it that way. Bam.