Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: July 27, 2025, 7:39 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Monist vs. Dualist Experiment?
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment?
(December 14, 2013 at 4:52 am)genkaus Wrote: And the only thing stopping you from taking the next logical step is your insistence on leaving space for some sort of magical, non-physical phenomena.
Newton’s critics dismissed gravity as magical. Now we consider it a fundamental force. Mind at least appears to influence physical processes and could be fundamental. Or not. Either way an adequate theory of mind must account for all relevant phenomena. Your position only redefines the phenomena of qualia in functional terms because it suits your theory. You have not even attempted to explain how qualia reduce to functions.
(December 14, 2013 at 4:52 am)genkaus Wrote: ...what I take as evidence of causal link is that change in one results in expected change in the other.
Granted. Now explain which is the cause and which is the effect. If a physical change to the brain causes a mental property to manifest, then can a mental property cause a change in the physical brain state? Or do they work in parallel? Do physical processes cause other physical processes while at the same time mental properties are causing other mental properties? Those are your only options. Choose.
(December 14, 2013 at 4:52 am)genkaus Wrote: There is no emergence in my view of qualia.
Another evasion. You claim high-level functions emerge that provide for self-reference. Then you call that qualia.
(December 14, 2013 at 4:52 am)genkaus Wrote: There is no over-determination or epiphenomenalism.
Only because you redefine qualia as a function and not using its accepted definition.
(December 14, 2013 at 4:52 am)genkaus Wrote: there is an evolutionary advantage to developing subjective experience.
Asserted without proof.
(December 14, 2013 at 4:52 am)genkaus Wrote: ...and the sign-significance relationship makes sense only within the context of subjective experience.
Subjective experience is what a theory of mind must explain. You haven’t explained anything about the relationship between subjective states and physical processes. You take it for granted.
(December 14, 2013 at 4:52 am)genkaus ' Wrote:
(December 13, 2013 at 2:16 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Few of the additional empirical features you mention (in addition to verbal reports of pain) would be present in a machine intelligence, like the hypothetical Cyberboy.
I'd say that the Cyberboy displaying those features would mean that it has been installed with the qualia function.
QUALIA FUNCTION!!! I have to throw the bullshit flag on that one. Just what exactly is a qualia function?

Now as for your "self-referencial data processing", it seems pretty clear to me that steam engine governors and thermostats perform self-referential data processes. I doubt either are conscious.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 28, 2013 at 3:42 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Chas - October 28, 2013 at 4:15 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Zazzy - October 28, 2013 at 4:23 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Jackalope - October 28, 2013 at 4:36 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by freedomfromforum - October 28, 2013 at 4:24 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 28, 2013 at 4:31 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Mister Agenda - October 28, 2013 at 4:32 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 28, 2013 at 7:25 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 28, 2013 at 8:11 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 28, 2013 at 9:17 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 28, 2013 at 10:09 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by max-greece - October 28, 2013 at 4:46 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 28, 2013 at 5:02 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 28, 2013 at 5:35 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 28, 2013 at 7:43 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - October 28, 2013 at 8:51 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 30, 2013 at 8:46 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 30, 2013 at 10:16 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 30, 2013 at 10:43 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - October 31, 2013 at 8:42 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Whateverist - November 6, 2013 at 12:04 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - November 7, 2013 at 10:05 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Zazzy - November 7, 2013 at 10:17 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 7, 2013 at 10:35 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Whateverist - November 7, 2013 at 11:54 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Cato - November 8, 2013 at 12:10 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 28, 2013 at 8:55 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 28, 2013 at 11:25 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 28, 2013 at 11:36 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 29, 2013 at 11:01 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 29, 2013 at 6:58 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 30, 2013 at 4:51 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 30, 2013 at 8:25 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 31, 2013 at 4:45 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 8:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 9:50 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 11:44 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 12:15 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 12:24 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 12:44 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - October 31, 2013 at 5:13 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 7:35 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 7:55 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 1, 2013 at 3:20 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 1, 2013 at 10:45 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 5, 2013 at 4:52 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 5, 2013 at 9:29 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - November 5, 2013 at 10:18 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 5, 2013 at 7:13 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 5, 2013 at 10:01 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 6, 2013 at 11:18 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 7, 2013 at 6:43 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 7, 2013 at 8:10 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 8, 2013 at 5:32 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 8, 2013 at 7:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 16, 2013 at 1:51 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 16, 2013 at 7:47 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 17, 2013 at 5:26 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 17, 2013 at 7:24 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 17, 2013 at 10:52 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 18, 2013 at 7:45 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 19, 2013 at 7:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 19, 2013 at 6:38 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 21, 2013 at 10:00 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 21, 2013 at 11:48 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 21, 2013 at 12:12 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 21, 2013 at 2:18 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 21, 2013 at 3:19 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 22, 2013 at 5:08 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 22, 2013 at 9:38 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 23, 2013 at 8:32 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 23, 2013 at 11:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 24, 2013 at 7:38 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 25, 2013 at 6:30 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - November 25, 2013 at 6:44 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 26, 2013 at 7:02 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 28, 2013 at 7:21 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 30, 2013 at 7:13 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 30, 2013 at 7:54 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Chas - November 30, 2013 at 8:11 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 30, 2013 at 8:45 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Chas - November 30, 2013 at 3:00 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 30, 2013 at 1:05 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 4, 2013 at 5:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 4, 2013 at 8:12 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 4, 2013 at 9:58 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 5, 2013 at 2:51 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 5, 2013 at 3:57 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 8, 2013 at 7:47 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - November 22, 2013 at 1:40 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 23, 2013 at 7:32 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 29, 2013 at 5:04 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 29, 2013 at 6:27 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 29, 2013 at 6:41 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 29, 2013 at 7:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - October 29, 2013 at 7:13 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 29, 2013 at 7:20 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 29, 2013 at 7:29 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 29, 2013 at 7:14 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - October 29, 2013 at 12:13 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - October 31, 2013 at 12:03 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 2:35 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 4:33 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - October 31, 2013 at 6:59 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - October 31, 2013 at 7:10 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by StuW - October 31, 2013 at 7:59 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - October 31, 2013 at 9:06 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - October 31, 2013 at 9:08 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Mister Agenda - October 31, 2013 at 9:56 am
Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by I and I - November 20, 2013 at 9:20 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - November 21, 2013 at 6:30 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 21, 2013 at 7:14 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - November 23, 2013 at 3:28 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - November 26, 2013 at 6:28 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - November 26, 2013 at 7:12 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 26, 2013 at 7:15 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - November 26, 2013 at 9:38 pm
Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by I and I - November 26, 2013 at 10:01 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - November 27, 2013 at 6:16 pm
Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by I and I - November 28, 2013 at 2:05 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 4, 2013 at 4:18 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 5, 2013 at 2:21 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 5, 2013 at 7:18 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 5, 2013 at 8:16 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 5, 2013 at 8:41 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 5, 2013 at 8:49 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by The_Thinking_Theist - December 4, 2013 at 5:25 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 6, 2013 at 12:08 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 9, 2013 at 3:24 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 10, 2013 at 2:09 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 12, 2013 at 7:53 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 12, 2013 at 3:23 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 11, 2013 at 5:07 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - December 11, 2013 at 5:53 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 12, 2013 at 10:44 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 13, 2013 at 3:01 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 12, 2013 at 5:28 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - December 13, 2013 at 3:47 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 13, 2013 at 2:16 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - December 13, 2013 at 2:23 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 13, 2013 at 2:49 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - December 13, 2013 at 4:07 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 13, 2013 at 4:23 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by genkaus - December 14, 2013 at 4:52 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by bennyboy - December 15, 2013 at 6:33 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Angrboda - December 13, 2013 at 4:26 pm
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by Neo-Scholastic - December 15, 2013 at 2:18 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by MindForgedManacle - December 15, 2013 at 2:29 am
RE: Monist vs. Dualist Experiment? - by pocaracas - December 15, 2013 at 7:43 am

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  J.J. Thompson's Violinist Thought Experiment Concerning Abortion vulcanlogician 29 3431 January 3, 2022 at 10:27 pm
Last Post: vulcanlogician
  #1 Thought experiment - "The Trolley Problem" ErGingerbreadMandude 108 18790 May 20, 2016 at 8:13 am
Last Post: Athene
  Omniscience: A thought experiment noctalla 58 11534 April 26, 2015 at 9:35 am
Last Post: Hatshepsut
  A thought experiment: The rainbow temple Escherscurtain 19 5655 August 8, 2014 at 9:46 am
Last Post: ignoramus
  Determinism, Free Will, and A Thought Experiment Mudhammam 14 6892 January 10, 2014 at 4:27 am
Last Post: Mudhammam
  Split Brain Experiment and the Soul The_Flying_Skeptic 11 8003 May 28, 2010 at 1:11 am
Last Post: tackattack
  What is Monist Theism? The_Flying_Skeptic 7 8284 April 26, 2010 at 10:04 am
Last Post: Caecilian



Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)