(December 19, 2013 at 3:20 am)max-greece Wrote: There appears to be a number of people on this forum that simply do not get why I, and others, are unable to renounce our Judiasm.
At the same time they identify the horrors perpetrated by Israel and ask how I, and others can continue to support it.
Over the last couple of days I have, for the first time since joining, been drawn into debates on Judaism and Israel and am seeing a, sadly unsurprising, level of hatred.
I am the first to admit that Israel behaves badly at times. There are a variety of human rights issues that need to be addressed and there are a number of problems with their version of democracy - proportional representation, that allows small, ultra religious groups to hold the balance of power.
I am not going to address all of that here. I am going to address what Israel means to me and probably a huge proportion of other Jews living around the world.
I have said, time and again recently, that I am Jewish not by choice but by the fact of my birth and that this, in and of itself, could be my death sentence. Its a lesson from history. I can run, but I cannot hide.
Am I paranoid? Oh yes - but am I paranoid enough?
To be Jewish is akin to having cancer - its not contagious, but it can kill you.
Now it seems that the holocaust has blinded many here to the history of anti-Semitism. There's rather more to it than that.
Behind the tags is a simple list. It details the date, the place and the event. It covers the period from about 250 AD to the Second World War. It is not complete.
Unfortunately the formatting of the list failed but I think you will get the gist. It looks better at http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles...rsecution/
Happy is the people who's history makes boring reading.
I am not Jewish through choice. I am not able/allowed to recant it.
I need to know there is one country I can always run to in time of greatest need.
I am Atheist.
I am Jewish.
I am Zionist.
Do I really need to say more?
You may have expected me to have strong opinions regarding this issue, that's if you've read any of my responses to raptor's ludicrous apocalypse omen posts lately. Firstly, i'd like to just say fair enough, you obviously derive great pride from your jewish identity. In times of crisis and difficulty, cultural signifiers can be really important to people, even the most atheistic of atheists can find comfort through the simplest of things, it's pure sentimentality of course but across all cultures and all periods there are probably an infinite number of objects, people and places that reassure us and give us a sense of worth, whether it's a good book, a kippah or a bit of holy text. I feel compelled though to rebut almost every aspect of your post, and I hope you'll take the time to perhaps understand why so many people find zionism both ridiculous and dangerous.
Quote:I am the first to admit that Israel behaves badly at times. There are a variety of human rights issues that need to be addressed and there are a number of problems with their version of democracy - proportional representation, that allows small, ultra religious groups to hold the balance of power.
Good, i'd argue that whilst Israel guarantees an admirable western-style level of civic living for its Jewish citizens, the menu for its arab citizens, particularly those confined to the virtual prison camps of the occupied territories, offers some of the worst living conditions on the planet. Both John Pilger and Noam Chomsky point particularly to the awful seperation barrier that is designed to humiliate rather than offer any sort of physical defense barrier. The presence of 'Jew only' and 'arab only' roads, walkways and services is also something that any zionist should truly feel ashamed of as it harks back to the darkest days of apartheid. It basically divides a nation along religious and ethnic grounds, a policy which for me is as far away from secular democracy as I can possibly imagine. The real achievement of secular democracy over theistic political systems is that effectively no distinction is made (or should be made) between those of different faiths, that is, the same rules apply to everyone regardless of colour or creed. The constant encroachments by way of settlement building are illegal according to united nations laws, and an insomountable number of watchdogs, charities and human rights organisations have condemned outright such projects (which still persist, despite them being a condition for any meaningful negotiations). It is this outright oppression that has helped push a desperate people towards extremism, not away from it. Economic blockades prevent civillian populations from engaging in any meaningful economic activity and force the said populations to rely on hand-outs/aid, they also force the said populations to gravitate towards those who (on the surface) appear to be better equipped at resisting the millitary presence that is present at every border crossing and every major population center. I am of course referring to the various millitant religious factions, particularly Hamas, that effectively police some of these occupied zones. Let's be clear, Hamas have an extremely undesireable agenda that revolves around sharia and sod-all rights for anyone, certainly not the sort of model for politics i'd endorse anywhere on the planet. The history of Israel is shameful, the massive immigration from mainly european jewish communities after the war resulted in the ethnic cleansing of untold numbers of native arab populations, many who had peacefully coexisted with a number of older Jewish tribes for centuries.
Quote:Now it seems that the holocaust has blinded many here to the history of anti-Semitism. There's rather more to it than that.
People are not blinded to the crimes of the holocaust or the history of anti-semitism, we are reminded all too often how jewish people and none jewish people alike have suffered centuries of persecution the world over. We know about pogroms and the holocaust, we know about hatred from Muslims and white supremacists alike even today. There are many native americans who could lecture you long and hard regarding the ethnic cleansing that resulted in the death and forced relocation of many millions of indigenous peoples. Rational secularists are all too aware of the perils of racism in its many forms, which is why most of us are so able to recognise zionism isntantly as yet another manifestation of elitism operating under the guise of a sort of last-resort 'only option left' approach to identity and homeland. It's NOT the only option of the jewish people.
Quote:Am I paranoid? Oh yes - but am I paranoid enough?
Quote:I am not Jewish through choice. I am not able/allowed to recant it.
I need to know there is one country I can always run to in time of greatest need.
You are paranoid, and hidden in your post and peddled by people like Marxraptor is the absurd notion that if zionists/jews alter their stance on zionism or israeli politics even slightly that they will all burn in a sea of flames in no time at all. This fear mongering is so dishonest and reflects, in my opinion, one of those most insanely irrational apocalyptic scenarios that is so stupidly unlikely that to honestly believe in it is to believe in the very essence of theistic/extreme political prophecy; dogma. I've listened to a great number of jewish fanatics (both religious and not-so-religious) scream and cry that any shift in political agenda will result in instant death camps and anihilation of the jewish people. This is just the worst form of scaremongering and isn't grounded in objective reality at all. Some people hate jews, but there are many countries on this planet in which jewish people are perfectly safe. In some places (London, New York etc) ultra orthodox communities gate themselves off, barely integrate and scurry around in funny clothes. I'm not about to extend a special degree of respect to these ultra observant sorts any more than I would against Jehova's Witnesses, scientologists, millitant islamists or other weird secretive cults. There are also however, a collosal amount of non-observant jews who integrate perfectly in to society, and nobody would EVER KNOW they were jewish unless they explicitly stated it. I have a Jewish friend who i've known for years, and only RECENTLY found out was of jewish heritage. Such was the insignifance of his jewish ancestry to his identity that it just didn't make a difference to his daily routine.
That i'm supposed to believe that people like him, that thousands upon thousands of atheist jews like him, are on the verge of being exterminated should Israel even consider relaxing some border controls or its disgustingly prejudiced citizenship laws , is so batshit ridiculous that the only word I can think to describe such thought is 'retarded'. Just retarded, and akin to the most ill-informed and dogmatic predictions made by religious extremists and unpluralistic political doctrines. Nazism, Stalinism, Islamism, orthodox Judaism all share this rigid, unchanging outlook on the world, in which an agenda can never be updated or improved. It's all fucking bullshit, it really is, just total barbaric vitriol. No amount of persecution to someone's ancestors can justify living people endorsing ethnic cleansing and such degrading treatment of an 'out-group'. Although I have not had the misfortune of visiting the occupied territories, I have two friends who volunteered at a perma-farm for an extended period of time. They witnessed the best and the worst of the holy land; beautiful sights, ancient buildings, peaceful border protests dispersed with live ammunition and a death caught on camera (smoke grenade buried in to the chest of an unarmed protester). This is fucking LUNACY and the idea that it's one must fall between the jews and the arabs is nuts. If a marxist radical and Jewish agnostic like Chomsky can look at the situation objectively without his heritage blurring his vision, and can look at Israel and say 'apartheid' then so can any atheist jew on the planet. There IS another solution, a peaceful one that won't result in the playground level prediction of another holocaust. Until this paranoid, hateful, extremist hate speech is put to fucking bed once and for all, there will never be peace in the holy land. If both sides put religion and ethno-nationalist extremism on the back seat and used the gift of rational, secular democracy then this discussion wouldn't even be necessary.
And can we PLEASE stop labelling the opponents of zionism as racists or leftist thugs. This is beyond purile. You can't just win every argument by shouting 'racist' and hoping that it'll serve as a show-stopper. Those are the sorts of tactics utilised by religious types who want block any discussion and cover up blatant holes in an argument. Chomsky clearly can't see a way to rationalise or reconcile marxism/anarchism with zionism and there's a bloody good reason why; it's because the two are completely incompatible. As someone on the left who occupies an anti-racist and semi-socialist seat on the grand political spectrum, I can see no way to reconcile common ownership of the means of production, anti-racism (and thus multiracialism), freedom of religion and freedom from religion, with......zionism. They are just too far removed from one another, they really are. It's like anarcho-capitalism and national-bolshevism; just total bollocks.
Jewish traditions aside, zionism is counter productive and will never end with any meaningful peace. The same goes for sharia politics. Until it is all cast aside and replaced with political pluralism then the holy land will be a haven for shit and piss for all eternity.
(June 19, 2013 at 3:23 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: Most Gays have a typical behavior of rejecting religions, because religions consider them as sinners (In Islam they deserve to be killed)
(June 19, 2013 at 3:23 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: I think you are too idiot to know the meaning of idiot for example you have a law to prevent boys under 16 from driving do you think that all boys under 16 are careless and cannot drive properly
