Why I am an atheist Jew and a Zionist.

[max-greece]

You may have expected me to have strong opinions regarding this issue, that's if you've read any of my responses to raptor's ludicrous apocalypse omen posts lately. Firstly, i'd like to just say fair enough, you obviously derive great pride from your jewish identity. In times of crisis and difficulty, cultural signifiers can be really important to people, even the most atheistic of atheists can find comfort through the simplest of things, it's pure sentimentality of course but across all cultures and all periods there are probably an infinite number of objects, people and places that reassure us and give us a sense of worth, whether it's a good book, a kippah or a bit of holy text. I feel compelled though to rebut almost every aspect of your post, and I hope you'll take the time to perhaps understand why so many people find zionism both ridiculous and dangerous.

I am the first to admit that Israel behaves badly at times. There are a variety of human rights issues that need to be addressed and there are a number of problems with their version of democracy - proportional representation, that allows small, ultra religious groups to hold the balance of power.

Good, i'd argue that whilst Israel guarantees an admirable western-style level of civic living for its Jewish citizens, the menu for its arab citizens, particularly those confined to the virtual prison camps of the occupied territories, offers some of the worst living conditions on the planet. Both John Pilger and Noam Chomsky point particularly to the awful seperation barrier that is designed to humiliate rather than offer any sort of physical defense barrier. The presence of 'Jew only' and 'arab only' roads, walkways and services is also something that any zionist should truly feel ashamed of as it harks back to the darkest days of apartheid. It basically divides a nation along religious and ethnic grounds, a policy which for me is as far away from secular democracy as I can possibly imagine. The real achievement of secular democracy over theistic political systems is that effectively no distinction is made (or should be made) between those of different faiths, that is, the same rules apply to everyone regardless of colour or creed. The constant encroachments by way of settlement building are illegal according to united nations laws, and an insomountable number of watchdogs, charities and human rights organisations have condemned outright such projects (which still persist, despite them being a condition for any meaningful negotiations). It is this outright oppression that has helped push a desperate people towards extremism, not away from it. Economic blockades prevent civillian populations from engaging in any meaningful economic activity and force the said populations to rely on hand-outs/aid, they also force the said populations to gravitate towards those who (on the surface) appear to be better equipped at resisting the millitary presence that is present at every border crossing and every major population center. I am of course referring to the various millitant religious factions, particularly Hamas, that effectively police some of these occupied zones. Let's be clear, Hamas have an extremely undesireable agenda that revolves around sharia and sod-all rights for anyone, certainly not the sort of model for politics i'd endorse anywhere on the planet. The history of Israel is shameful, the massive immigration from mainly european jewish communities after the war resulted in the ethnic cleansing of untold numbers of native arab populations, many who had peacefully coexisted with a number of older Jewish tribes for centuries.

Now it seems that the holocaust has blinded many here to the history of anti-Semitism. There's rather more to it than that.

People are not blinded to the crimes of the holocaust or the history of anti-semitism, we are reminded all too often how jewish people and none jewish people alike have suffered centuries of persecution the world over. We know about pogroms and the holocaust, we know about hatred from Muslims and white supremacists alike even today. There are many native americans who could lecture you long and hard regarding the ethnic cleansing that resulted in the death and forced relocation of many millions of indigenous peoples. Rational secularists are all too aware of the perils of racism in its many forms, which is why most of us are so able to recognise zionism isntantly as yet another manifestation of elitism operating under the guise of a sort of last-resort 'only option left' approach to identity and homeland. It's NOT the only option of the jewish people.

Am I paranoid? Oh yes - but am I paranoid enough?

I am not Jewish through choice. I am not able/allowed to recant it.

I need to know there is one country I can always run to in time of greatest need.

You are paranoid, and hidden in your post and peddled by people like Marxraptor is the absurd notion that if zionists/jews alter their stance on zionism or israeli politics even slightly that they will all burn in a sea of flames in no time at all. This fear mongering is so dishonest and reflects, in my opinion, one of those most insanely irrational apocalyptic scenarios that is so stupidly unlikely that to honestly believe in it is to believe in the very essence of theistic/extreme political prophecy; dogma. I've listened to a great number of jewish fanatics (both religious and not-so-religious) scream and cry that any shift in political agenda will result in instant death camps and anihilation of the jewish people. This is just the worst form of scaremongering and isn't grounded in objective reality at all. Some people hate jews, but there are many countries on this planet in which jewish people are perfectly safe. In some places (London, New York etc) ultra orthodox communities gate themselves off, barely integrate and scurry around in funny clothes. I'm not about to extend a special degree of respect to these ultra observant sorts any more than I would against Jehova's Witnesses, scientologists, millitant islamists or other weird secretive cults. There are also however, a collosal amount of non-observant jews who integrate perfectly in to society, and nobody would EVER KNOW they were jewish unless they explicitly stated it. I have a Jewish friend who i've known for years, and only RECENTLY found out was of jewish heritage. Such was the insignifance of his jewish ancestry to his identity that it just didn't make a difference to his daily routine.

That i'm supposed to believe that people like him, that thousands upon thousands of atheist jews like him, are on the verge of being exterminated should Israel even consider relaxing some border controls or its disgustingly prejudiced citizenship laws , is so batshit ridiculous that the only word I can think to describe such thought is 'retarded'. Just retarded, and akin to the most ill-informed and dogmatic predictions made by religious extremists and unpluralistic political doctrines. Nazism, Stalinism, Islamism, orthodox Judaism all share this rigid, unchanging outlook on the world, in which an agenda can never be updated or improved. It's all fucking bullshit, it really is, just total barbaric vitriol. No amount of persecution to someone's ancestors can justify living people endorsing ethnic cleansing and such degrading treatment of an 'out-group'. Although I have not had the misfortune of visiting the occupied territories, I have two friends who volunteered at a perma-farm for an extended period of time. They witnessed the best and the worst of the holy land; beautiful sights, ancient buildings, peaceful border protests dispersed with live ammunition and a death caught on camera (smoke grenade buried in to the chest of an unarmed protester). This is fucking LUNACY and the idea that it's one must fall between the jews and the arabs is nuts. If a marxist radical and Jewish agnostic like Chomsky can look at the situation objectively without his heritage blurring his vision, and can look at Israel and say 'apartheid' then so can any atheist jew on the planet. There IS another solution, a peaceful one that won't result in the playground level prediction of another holocaust. Until this paranoid, hateful, extremist hate speech is put to fucking bed once and for all, there will never be peace in the holy land. If both sides put religion and ethno-nationalist extremism on the back seat and used the gift of rational, secular democracy then this discussion wouldn't even be necessary.

And can we PLEASE stop labelling the opponents of zionism as racists or leftist thugs. This is beyond purile. You can't just win every argument by shouting 'racist' and hoping that it'll serve as a show-stopper. Those are the sorts of tactics utilised by religious types who want block any discussion and cover up blatant holes in an argument. Chomsky clearly can't see a way to rationalise or reconcile marxism/anarchism with zionism and there's a bloody good reason why; it's because the two are completely incompatible. As someone on the left who occupies an anti-racist and semi-socialist seat on the grand political spectrum, I can see no way to reconcile common ownership of the means of production, anti-racism (and thus multiracialism), freedom of religion and freedom from religion, with......zionism. They are just too far removed from one another, they really are. It's like anarcho-capitalism and national-bolshevism; just total bollocks.

Jewish traditions aside, zionism is counter productive and will never end with any meaningful peace. The same goes for sharia politics. Until it is all cast aside and replaced with political pluralism then the holy land will be a haven for shit and piss for all eternity.

Wes,

First off - fucking brilliant post. My congratulations.

Just a couple of things.

1. I am in no way defending much of the actions of Israel. I do not support these actions, and, as I have said in another thread, it is truly deplorable.

2. Whilst it is lovely to work on the basis that if I don't bring it up I won't ever have a problem it is simply not the case.

Now, as is probably obvious from my user name I live in Greece. Jews have lived in Greece for the last 2,000 years, It is one of the first countries Christianity spread to largely as a result of the large Jewish population here. You will notice from the list I provided there are no mentions of any anti-Semitic actions in Greece.

I must feel safe here, right?

How can Greece have a problem with Jews? It never has done.

So its all rosy, except:

1. Until very recently one's religion was detailed on your ID card. It no longer is - but the information is held.
2. This is the age of information -Google knows more about me than my own mother should. How long would it really take someone to "find out" I am Jewish? Hell - they could probably pick it up from a dozen or so posts on here.
3. Golden Dawn. An extreme far right party which, according to the latest polls now garners 11% of the vote (it has been as high as 16%, fell, but is now on the way back up).

I look at history and I see that when economies collapse, far right sentiment grows. It has happened before and it is happening now. Can't happen again, can it?

So lets take a look at Golden Dawn. I went onto their website, read down the first page for about 30 seconds and then clicked on a link:

http://golden-dawn-international-newsroo....html#more

Read it and weep.

So, should I wait to see them elected, safe in the knowledge that they won't find out I am Jewish, that they won't lead a progrom against Jews, that I won't be rounded up and put in a camp, or murdered, tortured....

Suppose I decide the risk isn't worth it. Suppose I decide to leave. Where should I go? England? Possibly.

Where is the one place on the planet that I actually know, for certain, I can go?

Israel.

So tell me again how I am paranoid. Tell me how it can't happen again. Tell me how being Zionist is irrational and unforgivable.