Strong Atheism starts from faith

[tavarish]

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[quote='tackattack' pid='56788' dateline='1266541969']

You act like I'm afraid to lose my belief? Do I really seem to be that unopen to new ideas? Am I not a Christian talking openly on an atheist forum? True I didn't come here to question my belief ony to understand a different POV, but that doesn't mean I'll reject it outright because I'm afraid I'll lose some reward in heaven... that's preposterous. Make your points or don't, but don't try to save me from your almighty logic, before you even posit a response.This is just an exchange of ideas.. in no way a formal debate (which I refuse to participate in) and I'm fully capable of accepting new ideas.

Whoa there, buddy. I didn't say anything about you being scared of losing anything, it was not my intention for the tone to imply such a prospect, so I apologize if I misspoke.

Take a chill pill, I'm not here to mess with your beliefs or try to invalidate your experiences.

1- correct but you also assume the possibility that God exists, unless you're an absolutist, which I don't gather. So we'll discus my concept of God then.

There is a possibility that God exists, sure. There is also a possibility of fairies in my underwear drawer, both equally devoid of evidence to support the claims. You can't make a positive claim that they don't, so there is a possibility. However, the odds of this are ridiculously tiny. I try not to assume anything. I'll consider something with evidence though.

2-Empirical as in data produced through experiment or experience (subjective or objective). Verifiable through continuous and exploration and logical inference.

Do you understand how subjective evidence is irrelevant to everyone else?

3-The validity is sound only when all variables are accounted for. Since we're talkigng on a scale as large as God then I simply look for more varialbles to eliminate and reassess. The whole of me being on this forum is a search for variables I've missed.

What are the variables you have accounted for thus far?

3.5-Do you really expect a peer review article published in a scientific journal? Yoiu can do better than that. If you would like documented or shared experience look up the word testimonial.

This is what you wrote:

That doesn't equal "there's no evidence for God". Those mental constructs (which I would group with math, etc.) along with inductive reasoning and subjective personal perspective and peer-review help me form my belief, which is well above the threshold of belief in God for me.

You mentioned peer review, I simply asked you to establish that point a bit better.

4.3- I too was in wresting as a youth and definately had that dopamine/adrenalin rush before a game when we were psyching ourselves up. That is dependant on either suggestability or seeking a "high". I rarely seek the holy spirit's intervention, in fact that's probably my worst trait as a Christian not seeking God's help in my daily life. People are deemed to be suggestible if they accept and act on suggestions by others. I only act of my own volition whenever I'm not forced to do something, which is rarely I'm 6'4" and 260 lbs.

You accept God intervenes in your life and you say you feel the presence of the Holy Spirit. That's fine. Then you say he has control of you, but yet you act of your own volition. The fact that this exact response can be independently tested and replicated kind of puts the whole experience into perspective. There is a high probability that it's not an outside force acting on you, it's your brain doing what it does best - providing stimuli.

By the way,the best kind of illusions are the ones that absolutely convince you of their validity.

4.5-I agree that my perceptions of synchonicity have greatly increased since my reentering into religion. I wouldn't say I didn't see any coincidence while a nonbeliever. The causality train just seem far smaller without religion. Perhaps I was just paying attention less to why I was doing what I was doing?

It's the same effect if I buy a Volkswagen Jetta, then I suddenly start noticing all the Jettas on the road. Your brain has a way to filter out the information that's not relevant to your immediate worldview.

4.6healing by prayer is probably more of a psychological stress relief allowing the immune system to work better I'll conceed that. How then could I know when to "randomly" pray for someone in need when consciously I had no thoughts on that person's wellbeing or life?

I don't understand the question. You randomly prayed for someone in need? Did you know they were in need beforehand? Can you shed some more light on this?

I'd dismiss this as a coincidence, but I'm not sure I fully understand the situation.

4.7-Once again another atheist saying I need clinical help... really? Why when I rationally and honestly answer the quesitons in as concise a manner as I can, am I reffered to psychiactric help or told to jump into traffic? Sounds like someone has a psychological defence mechanism preventing them from actually looking at themselves and focusing solely on others for accountability.. and it's not me. I'm away I act on my own, I have no puppetmaster pulling strings so that I grab a girls butt as she walks by... ridiculus. I don't take credit for anything the holy spirit does, it's actually a common Chrisitan habit. I do however take complete responsibility for everything my body does. I've never heard a Christian that I've know say I stole her purse because God told me to do it, not a rational one at least. Maybe you should take some responsibility for that vomit you just threw up, or am I responsible for that?

I'll make this known and I'll write it clearly so anyone can understand without strife.

If you believe that an entity can control you against your will and control your body via proxy or extreme influence, you may have a psychological illness. Doing something not only because something told you to do it, but something MADE you do it is downright scary.

I'm not trying to patronize you, I'm trying to tell you that it's not normal. I'm being as brutally honest as I can be, and I'm not making fun of you. I'm not saying to jump into traffic. I want you to realize that something taking control of you beyond your own control can be a big indicator of mental illness. Whether that applies to you or not is up to you.

Personally, I try to take responsibility for everything I do, and don't hold a belief that I have a guiding force(s) pushing me to a certain predestined goal.

"They have happened before and will happen again to people. They are not isolated or unique phenomena. " That's exactly my point. They're not unique, just shared experience. atheists say they're unique not theists. Perhaps you're missing out?

If they weren't unique to you you wouldn't be listing them as subjective evidence for the existence of God. I just told you that I don't regard them as unique. Why would you maintain a blanket statement that applies to all atheists?

I was probably a little too hyped on caffeine; I've been away from it for a while. It's just a little frustrating that, as a theist, I would have precursored any positing of a rebuttal with that, at least 3 people would have pointed out the attack on innuendo. Though, not nearly as frustrating as having to type half of this response three times, due to internet problems.
1-So we can agree that we both have faith that God could exist, just varying levels. That point can rest then.
2-Yes and my concept of God should be irrelevant to you. Conceptually God, from a Christian perspective, gives each of us a direct line to understanding him. Subjectivity is actually a key. I’m not making a claim for you, only myself.
3-I guess that list would be better as a whole other thread.
3.5- Ok so I’ve clarified peer review as testimonial, make your point.
4.3- Actually I have said the exact opposite of your first assertion. “I don't feel he acts on our behalf or intercedes but is omnificent and omnipotent.” I would say we all have a holy spirit that we interact with. It pulls us closer to God in a way similar to a magnet and iron shavings. The Holy Spirit being the magnetic fields and God being the magnet, etc.
4.3.1-You’re just reasserting that it can be independently tested and replicated. I clearly delineated that my experience has not, to my knowledge, been replicated and is not indicative of normal responces to various stimuli.
4.3.2- How can I be misled by myself(read illusion)? The only person I can be is me, and the only direction I can go is forward. Every time atheists claim I’m delusional or need to test God by jumping into traffic the people who know me laugh.
4.5 It could possibly be a form of confirmational bias (less than20% IMO) but definitely not rationalization. I believe that rests on your interpretations of relevant and immediate, which seem to me to reside in the conscious mind not the subconscious.
4.6 For instance I’m sitting in prayer thanking God for his wonderful awesomeness and suddenly a friend I haven’t spoken with in 6 years just pops into my head. I pray for him and feel his body needs healing, so I ask for it. I shoot him an email just BS’ing about how he’s been and it’s been a while, and how’s the family. Come to find out that he’s going though the stress of having polyps tested and very worried about it. I then respond back about my prayer and he shared the test results and we all had a good story to tell.
4.7- see the metaphor in 4.3 It’s not like I couldn’t separate the magnet and the iron fillings. I can tell God no, I can refuse to do what the spirit nudges me to ask about, say, or go. I did it before. Every time I do go along with it though, synchronicity events start stacking up.
4.8 They’re unique to me. You’re referencing the populace though so I inferred you were talking about unique among a group. They’re not unique among Christians, but to an individual they stand out for their own belief.

This really was much more eloquent and inclusive of all my thoughts the first time. I’m getting tired now and Void is doing a great job of distracting me, to his benefit. I'll have to reassess tomorrow.

1. I don't have faith that a God COULD exist. I'm simply not making the positive claim that he does not. I'm not lending any credibility to the claim, and I'm also adding that such a claim would be highly, highly unlikely. Saying I have faith that he could exist would be to also say that I have faith that leprechauns or wizards could exist.

2. If subjectivity is key, then it's paramount to understand that it doesn't go much farther past subjective interpretations, meaning no objective claim is likely to be true.

3.5. Perhaps you didn't understand what peer review actually meant. I understand you meant to write testimonial, but peer review is altogether something different. Testimonials, secondhand accounts, and anecdotal evidence is not valid when objectively trying to deduct a conclusion, since they can be easily embellished, changed, and cherry picked at the subject's choosing, making it almost impossible to call their bluff on it. "Taking someone's word for it" isn't good enough. Pure and simple.

4.3. Again, you're asserting an objective claim with subjective, anecdotal evidence. If I told you the sky was falling, and to have faith that it was, and I got a bunch of others to believe me, would you then also believe, based on the collective faiths of like-minded people?

4.31. I'd log this under confirmation bias. The fact that religious experiences have been replicated artificially using certain psychological and physical methods is pretty self-explanatory. Every truly religious person knows that what they feel is genuine and generally dismiss any evidence to the contrary. You explained the rushing of the holy spirit and the control over you. I illustrated how this has been done.

4.32. It's very easy to be misled. When you assume God exists, you're more susceptible to things that you might attribute to him - things you normally wouldn't, such as coincidences, situations you don't quite understand, freak occurrences, and religious experiences that manifest into your physical body and have an effect on your emotional status. I'm not saying you have to test God by jumping out into traffic, but I think it would be safe to say most of what you put forth can objectively be classified as wishful thinking.

4.5. Where are you pulling these statistics? Your brain has a method of singling out elements in your life that identify with your world view. If I suddenly started working at Dairy Queen, you'd be certain that I would notice more Dairy Queens in my area. The same thing as if you started a belief that God is all around you, you would notice coincidental things more and attribute that to a divine presence.

4.6. Would it be just as big of a coincidence if you had just thought about him,not prayed, then decided to call? How about if you had dreamt it? Lots of people have medical issues, most turn out to be easily treatable. Contacting a friend after a while because you had a hunch that he needs help, and come to find out he's getting benign polyps tested is a coincidence. Did you think your prayer had anything to do with his test results?

4.7. Every time you believe that a spirit takes over your actions, more coincidences occur in your mind? You don't see in the slightest bit how this is rationalization? Seriously?

4.8. As well they should be if you sincerely believe what you say you do. All I'm saying is that these things have happened and will continue to happen, all without the need of a supernatural explanation. Subjective experience lends itself to embellishment, exaggeration, and false and unfounded claims. The objective explanation of all the things you listed can be attributed to your own imagination and thought processes. In all likelihood, it's the most realistic claim.

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