RE: Challenge to atheists: I find your lack of faith disturbing!
March 23, 2014 at 9:48 pm
(This post was last modified: March 23, 2014 at 9:51 pm by Aractus.)
(March 23, 2014 at 10:20 am)xpastor Wrote: About his life and death, we can say only that he probably created a disturbance in the temple and he was probably crucified as a troublemaker.That's not accurate at all, you know that. The facts not in dispute are that Jesus lived, that he called disciples, was baptized by John and that he died by crucifixion. Furthermore, it's also not in dispute that his body went missing three days after his crucifixion, and many atheists have come up with interesting theories as to explain why or how. Some other facts generally accepted are that Paul knew the family of Jesus and that he wrote at least 7 of his Epistles, and furthermore consensus is that Luke-Acts was written by a single Author.
I know you're aware of all this, but I'm reminding you since you made it seem as if any and all of the details of Jesus' life are in dispute among the critical scholars, when in fact many are not.
Quote:I don't even think much of his moral teaching is useful. Because he thought the end was nigh, he advised extremes such as not being concerned about where your sustenance would come from, avoiding marriage, etc. One big exception, the parable of the good Samaritan, which can hardly be improved on.Well that's your theory. I think we'll both agree on quality of the Good Samaritan parable.
Quote:What we can say is that he was a brilliant speaker, the parables and the wrong-headed moral teaching really catch your attention. He made a huge impact on his immediate followers, so much so that they could not accept his death, and they began to spread stories of his resurrection, probably after one deluded person had a hallucination.This theory, as I've pointed out before, means you have to do a lot more explaining like how did Paul get converted to Christianity, and why does he record in 1 Corinthians that there are more than 500 witnesses to the resurrected Christ, most of them still alive?
More to the point, why is this completely consistent?
- Matt 28:10: Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.”
- Matt 28:16-20: Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
- Mark 16:7: But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.”
- Luke 24:18-24: Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered (Jesus), “Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?” And he said to them, “What things?” And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened. Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning, and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.”
- 1 Corinthians 15:3-8: For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
Paul claims to have met the risen Christ, and he makes the explicit claim that the risen Christ appeared before 500 Christians at one time. One deluded person may have an hallucination, but 500 at once? All the disciples? All the apostles too? Mary and Mary? What would make your theory more credible is if one of the disciples or one apostle came out and said "hey these guys are deluded" - did that ever happen? Heck, not even someone from the laity of the period said it.
(March 23, 2014 at 10:58 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: To underscore the plausibility of this scenario, just say one word.Explains that some people can misinterpret what they see - mind you most Elvis sightings were well after the first 40 days of his death. What it doesn't explain is why do we have all the disciples and all the apostles called as witnesses to the event, plus another 500 Christians? Surely you're not going to tell me that of all 11 disciples and however many apostles there were at that time that none of them would be recorded as saying "I never saw the risen Christ"?
Elvis.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke