Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: August 6, 2025, 9:47 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Is Eve in Hell right now?
#98
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now?
(May 28, 2014 at 6:58 am)Confused Ape Wrote:
(May 27, 2014 at 10:26 pm)Godschild Wrote: You need to bring proof.

GC

Here's something interesting I discovered about God on the Judaism 101 website.

Judaism 101 - The Nature of G-d

Quote:G-d is the Creator of Everything

Everything in the universe was created by G-d and only by G-d. Judaism completely rejects the dualistic notion that evil was created by Satan or some other deity. All comes from G-d. As Isaiah said , "I am the L-rd, and there is none else. I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil. I am the L-rd, that does all these things." (Is. 45:6-7).

I checked it out and that's what the King James and American Standard say. Other translations have variation on - "I make well-being, I create woe".

When I looked into this further I found a interpretation on the Christian Apologetics And Research Ministry website - Does God Create Evil?

The author uses a translation which says - "Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these," (Isaiah 45:5-7). The article goes on to say that God creates natural disasters, not moral evil.

Outreach Judaism has a different perspective.

I read through the Judaism 101 or at least the first page and I and most Christians I know would agree with almost all of it, I do not agree that God created evil. One reason I do not believe He did, God said at the end of each creation day, "it was very good." To my understanding there was no evil in creation or God would not have called His creation very good.
The word ra' that is from ra'a' can be translated as evil, however that evil can come in many forms that are not moral evil, it can also be translated as calamity, dishonest, dishonor and many others of this likeness. The New American Standard has translated it as calamity, as not a moral evil.
Actually I do not see how moral evil (that which is against God), can be created, I do not really believe Satan created evil though I have probably said this to emphasize that God did not create that which goes against His good and perfect will. It just doesn't make sense that an omniscient being would create something that is not part of Him and would be contrary to all of who He is. Even sensible man doesn't create problems for himself and we are definitely not omniscient.
I see evil as an action contrary to God's will, I know this can bring up several different arguments, I believe these would be best left to a different thread.

CA Wrote:Outreach Judaism is an international organization that responds directly to the issues raised by missionaries and cults, by exploring Judaism in contradistinction to fundamentalist Christianity.

Quote:Who Is Satan?

“See, I [God] have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil.” (Deuteronomy 30:15)

When describing God’s creation plan, the prophet Isaiah reports that the Almighty created evil in the world:

“I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)

I did not invent these verses, nor did I tamper with them. In fact, the Bible I used in the above quotations is the King James Version, a translation that could hardly be construed as friendly to the Jewish faith.

It's a dangerous thing to take a verse out of a story to defend a position and that verse actually has a different meaning, as in Deut. 30:15. This is a warn from God to the Israelites, "if you do not obey these commandments, the ones not out of you reach, this I will cause to happen to you." Note there is nothing about creation in the entire chapter (30), it is about obedience once they enter the promise land. Verse 15 is actually a choice, they can choose a good long life as a nation or they can choose a short and disastrous life as a nation. As long as they obeyed God's commandments as a nation they would prosper, if the chose to disobey they would fall into the hands of their enemies, this is the meaning of chapter 30.

CA Wrote:These edifying verses underscore the fundamental biblical teaching of the Almighty’s divine sovereign plan, which provides that every searching soul must confront evil, as well as good, in order to remain vigilant in one’s personal search for perfect spiritual balance. The Almighty’s gift of freewill to humanity is what separates us from His other creations. For those committed to attaining a higher spiritual existence, the struggle toward a life of virtue is only possible with the existence of evil, which serves as a spiritual counterweight. In other words, righteousness cannot exist unless man is free to choose or reject evil.

Adam and Eve lived for who knows how long in righteousness with God, no evil was present until Lucifer entered the Garden as a fallen angel. Lucifer had been in the Garden with God before his fall, this is told us through a comparison for the King of Tyre. Why would God create a being that would do evil, this is completely against who God is, tell me why would God's sovereign will need to contain evil, God had already existed forever without evil existing, so good does not need evil to exist, but evil can not exist without good. Why would God create evil to cause Him the troubles He had to deal with because of man, why would God create an evil being like Satan to eventually put him into hell, no chance to have a life with God, no free will to choose, just a puppet in God's hand, to me this is not sovereignty, it would controlling life with no real purpose other than to manipulate. Assuming God created evil and Satan is a way to pass the blame and scripture shows us that we have no excuses, the Israelites were good a doing this, it's why they endured much suffering.

CA Wrote:Satan isn't a fallen angel in Judaism.

Quote:Passages in Tanach like Isaiah 45:7 and Deuteronomy 30:15 pose a monumental theological problem for Christians who maintain that God did not create Satan, the angel of evil. According to Christian doctrine, as you state in your question, Satan was the highest-ranking angel who, through his own act of spiritual defiance and outright disobedience, became the chief adversary and slanderer of God, and the embodiment of evil in this world.

I've explained those two verses within the chapters they reside, and it is the only way to find the truth they reveal. They actually say nothing in their truth that God created evil. I and most Christians have no problem with these verses, the people who have trouble with these verses are the ones who use them as stand alones to defend an idea for which they were not written.
The scriptures tell of Lucifer's fall, the event's account reaches into the NT.

CA Wrote:As you maintained in your question, God never created evil according Christian teachings; He is only the author of righteousness and perfection. Therefore, God could never create something as sinister as the devil himself. Rather, Satan’s unyielding wickedness is the result of his own spiritual rebellion.

Yes, this is widely accepted throughout Christianity.

CA Wrote:Although this well-known Christian doctrine has much in common with the pagan Zoroastrian Persian dualism from which it spawned, it is completely alien to the teachings of the Jewish Scriptures. In fact, this Christian notion that Satan, in an act of outright defiance, ceased to function as God had intended him to, suggests that God created something imperfect or defective.

It actually shows that God has given all the created creatures free will, God wants His created ones to love Him and love can not exist without free will. If you will look at what you have quoted the writer uses the word intended, this very word by the writer shows God's free will for His created ones. Without free will there is no perfection, only mindless robots with no will of their own.

CA Wrote:For the Jewish faith, Satan’s purpose in seducing man away from God poses no problem because Satan is only an agent of God. As a servant of the Almighty, Satan faithfully carries out the divine will of his Creator as he does in all his tasks.

The book of Job contradicts this notion, again I ask why would God create a being that could only ever deserve hell, no way to ever find God's grace?

GC

(May 28, 2014 at 11:07 am)RobbyPants Wrote:
(May 27, 2014 at 8:48 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: The Bible says in several places that God lies and deceives.

And even if it didn't, we certainly have no reason to trust him. The apologetics are quite clear on this.

Really where?

GC

(May 28, 2014 at 9:22 am)Starvald Demelain Wrote:
(May 27, 2014 at 11:07 pm)Stimbo Wrote: [Image: Irony-Meter-Explode-398x500.jpg]

[Image: AFmegaKudos_zpsf69d5040.png]

That's not an irony meter, it's what atheist propaganda does to your atheist mind and soul.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Brakeman - May 22, 2014 at 12:56 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by vorlon13 - May 22, 2014 at 12:59 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Tiberius - May 22, 2014 at 1:38 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Chad32 - May 22, 2014 at 1:05 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by RobbyPants - May 22, 2014 at 4:05 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Lek - May 22, 2014 at 4:17 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by RobbyPants - May 22, 2014 at 4:21 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Lek - May 22, 2014 at 4:40 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by RobbyPants - May 22, 2014 at 6:41 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 23, 2014 at 4:22 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Elskidor - May 22, 2014 at 1:08 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Minimalist - May 22, 2014 at 1:49 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by SteelCurtain - May 22, 2014 at 1:31 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Tonus - May 22, 2014 at 1:54 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by ThePinsir - May 22, 2014 at 2:02 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Minimalist - May 22, 2014 at 2:29 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Cato - May 22, 2014 at 3:21 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Lek - May 22, 2014 at 3:33 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Rampant.A.I. - May 22, 2014 at 7:07 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by The Valkyrie - May 22, 2014 at 4:19 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - May 22, 2014 at 6:52 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 22, 2014 at 11:54 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Bob Kelso - May 23, 2014 at 3:15 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 23, 2014 at 12:30 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Bob Kelso - May 23, 2014 at 6:41 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - May 23, 2014 at 4:35 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 23, 2014 at 12:39 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Chad32 - May 23, 2014 at 8:46 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Tonus - May 23, 2014 at 8:59 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 24, 2014 at 7:17 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Cato - May 24, 2014 at 7:48 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Bob Kelso - May 24, 2014 at 8:17 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Confused Ape - May 24, 2014 at 9:20 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 26, 2014 at 3:34 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Confused Ape - May 26, 2014 at 9:33 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 26, 2014 at 10:30 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Brakeman - May 26, 2014 at 11:37 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Confused Ape - May 26, 2014 at 12:57 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 27, 2014 at 2:37 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Confused Ape - May 27, 2014 at 6:14 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Brakeman - May 24, 2014 at 10:34 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Tonus - May 26, 2014 at 12:09 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 27, 2014 at 12:57 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Tonus - May 27, 2014 at 1:07 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 29, 2014 at 4:41 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Tonus - May 29, 2014 at 8:48 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 29, 2014 at 10:59 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Brakeman - June 7, 2014 at 11:32 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 27, 2014 at 8:48 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 27, 2014 at 10:26 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 28, 2014 at 1:47 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 28, 2014 at 11:20 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Confused Ape - May 28, 2014 at 6:58 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 29, 2014 at 2:06 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Confused Ape - May 29, 2014 at 5:17 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Brakeman - May 28, 2014 at 7:25 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by RobbyPants - May 28, 2014 at 11:07 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Cyberman - May 23, 2014 at 7:05 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Silver - May 23, 2014 at 12:00 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 23, 2014 at 12:21 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Silver - May 23, 2014 at 12:25 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 23, 2014 at 12:36 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Silver - May 23, 2014 at 12:39 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 23, 2014 at 1:06 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Silver - May 23, 2014 at 1:11 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 23, 2014 at 1:38 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Silver - May 23, 2014 at 1:48 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Cato - May 23, 2014 at 8:22 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Bob Kelso - May 23, 2014 at 8:38 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Cato - May 23, 2014 at 9:03 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by The Valkyrie - May 23, 2014 at 1:43 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Confused Ape - May 23, 2014 at 7:29 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Brakeman - May 23, 2014 at 7:37 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Confused Ape - May 23, 2014 at 8:52 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by RobbyPants - May 23, 2014 at 11:47 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Minimalist - May 23, 2014 at 12:38 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - May 23, 2014 at 5:35 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 24, 2014 at 2:15 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 24, 2014 at 5:10 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - May 24, 2014 at 5:35 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Confused Ape - May 24, 2014 at 5:53 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Artur Axmann - May 24, 2014 at 5:17 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Brakeman - May 24, 2014 at 5:26 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Cyberman - May 24, 2014 at 5:28 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Artur Axmann - May 24, 2014 at 5:33 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Brakeman - May 26, 2014 at 8:28 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - May 24, 2014 at 7:34 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 26, 2014 at 3:02 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 26, 2014 at 3:15 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Wyrd of Gawd - May 26, 2014 at 3:44 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Godschild - May 26, 2014 at 5:39 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Mudhammam - May 26, 2014 at 6:16 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Bob Kelso - May 26, 2014 at 7:15 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by RaisdCath - May 26, 2014 at 10:31 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by archangle - May 26, 2014 at 11:52 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Minimalist - May 27, 2014 at 2:25 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by MountainsWinAgain - May 27, 2014 at 7:06 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Brakeman - May 27, 2014 at 9:24 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by kılıç_mehmet - May 27, 2014 at 9:25 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Brakeman - May 27, 2014 at 9:30 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by vorlon13 - May 27, 2014 at 11:24 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Cyberman - May 27, 2014 at 11:07 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Bob Kelso - May 28, 2014 at 9:22 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by ThomM - June 1, 2014 at 7:30 pm
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Brakeman - June 7, 2014 at 9:06 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Wyrd of Gawd - June 4, 2014 at 2:22 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Cyberman - June 4, 2014 at 5:47 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Brian37 - June 7, 2014 at 9:38 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Creed of Heresy - June 7, 2014 at 10:54 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by Wyrd of Gawd - June 7, 2014 at 11:21 am
RE: Is Eve in Hell right now? - by vorlon13 - June 7, 2014 at 11:26 am

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Adam & Eve T.J. 4 1633 November 6, 2021 at 11:49 am
Last Post: BrianSoddingBoru4
  The Adam & Eve Myth - Origins Gwaithmir 125 24527 July 13, 2019 at 11:49 am
Last Post: Jehanne
  Christians Make Me Sick ~ Eve th Nice Ones Rhondazvous 16 4171 May 17, 2016 at 11:50 am
Last Post: Rhondazvous
  Why the whole Adam and Eve Fall story makes no sense 1994Californication 237 55671 April 3, 2016 at 10:05 am
Last Post: FebruaryOfReason
  What the Hell,is Hell anyway? Vern Cliff 31 9024 October 15, 2015 at 1:17 pm
Last Post: brewer
  so you're in heaven now what? - coming soon so you're in hell now what v2 dyresand 8 3441 July 13, 2015 at 12:24 am
Last Post: ignoramus
  So you when to hell now what. dyresand 556 159407 June 25, 2015 at 7:58 am
Last Post: Tonus
  Adam and Eve's IQ Brakeman 61 14396 April 25, 2015 at 2:44 pm
Last Post: Wyrd of Gawd
  Hell Houses (AKA: Hallelujah Houses, Heaven or Hell, Christian Haunted House, etc.) Strider 25 8674 December 3, 2014 at 3:07 pm
Last Post: abaris
  God's injustice towards Adam and Eve Ryantology 131 39932 August 29, 2014 at 10:12 am
Last Post: Mister Agenda



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)