(May 27, 2014 at 1:07 pm)Tonus Wrote:(May 27, 2014 at 12:57 am)Godschild Wrote: Scripture says God can not lie, this seems to indicate He is incapable of lying, scripture also says God can not do evil or sin (both I see as the same), this to me means He is incapable of these actions.
I understand what you are saying, but it just diminishes god in my opinion. God is conceivably the most perfect being in existence. Thus, while god is not restricted from doing something (such as lying) he is not tempted to do so, as there is nothing to gain from wrongdoing. To be limited in any way is to be diminished in some way, is my view of it.
A very reasonable idea of God, one I have no problem with, however I do disagree. I do not see God not able to lie as being limited, if it's not part of who He is I can't see it as being a limit, only something that does not exist for Him.
GC Wrote:No I do not think so, obedience and love go hand in hand, this is a theme throughout the scriptures, the scriptures show them to be locked together. The tree was not meant as a stumbling block, it was there to show love through obedience.
Tonus Wrote:But you can obey someone even if you do not love them, and you can show love through many other ways than obedience. A person may obey out of fear, or out of self-interest. God would have known that Eve loved him because he can read the hearts of men.
Yes I agree, however if you obey the laws God's given us there must be love in the obedience and for God obedience is a fundamental part of love.
As for Eve, she showed her diminished love through her disobedience and the disaster it brought. I see compliance as doing things out of fear or self-interest. Obedience is a desire to obey.
GC Wrote:
Tonus Wrote:I think that there were many ways to do that, though. If god did spend time with Adam and Eve, then they had many ways to show how they felt about him. Doing the assigned work to the fullest of their abilities, or enjoying the world given them and the time spent with him. The tree stood outside of the relationship, in that they could have had the same with or without it. The only use I can see for it is giving them a way to express a desire to separate themselves from god.
The one thing about this situation for Adam and Eve, up until the time they were tempted they did obey, something that was and is extremely important to God and in the end that's what matters. As far as the story goes the only requirement from God was to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
GC Wrote:
Tonus Wrote:The story confirms that the serpent's claim (that they would be like god, knowing good and evil) comes true, as god himself expresses this concern. The question would then become- what is meant by knowledge of good and evil? Is there some other meaning to it, and does the Bible provide an answer?
I'm not sure that is completely what happened, they came to know how to do evil and what it was, God understood what it meant and the consequences that came with such knowledge. Even now I do not believe most humans can conceive all the consequences of evil. I believe that the knowledge could be considered a desire for sin and the understanding of how difficult being good all the time actually is. I also believe that temptation is now from within and not necessarily because of someone or something else. Hope that makes some kind of sense.
GC Wrote:So in the end I believe Eve knew that to disobey God meant she was not giving Him all of her love.
Tonus Wrote:I think it is not unreasonable to assume that she at least understood that god would not be pleased. So it becomes a question of what she thought she was gaining, versus what she thought she was losing. If she believes the serpent, then she thinks she will not die and that she will gain some kind of knowledge that god withheld from her. Did she think it would put her on equal footing? Or was she so overtaken by curiosity that she did not consider any other consequence and just wanted to know?
All good questions and probably want know the answer to in this life, one thing I do think is Eve did not consider what God had said to her because the temptation was great. I do not believe it was something she couldn't have over come, that would have negated the necessity of choice.
Tonus Wrote:So I wonder what she learned about god that made her confident enough to accept the serpent's word and eat the fruit.
It might have been that she only knew the love of God, if God had revealed all of what He could do and would do they might have reverted to compliance instead of obedience.
GC Wrote:
Tonus Wrote:I think it was within god's power to deal with it differently, at least where their descendants were concerned. Adam and Eve had broken a clear rule with a clear consequence, but that was spread to everyone. If god gave them that command, then there is the implicit understanding that humanity was capable of sin. So god had already put the pieces in place to deal with the possibility of people turning away from him. Why the plan that requires millennia of human suffering and even god himself being tortured and killed in human form? Is it that Adam and Eve were the first humans, and there were no others who could continue the line of perfect people after them?
Being within God's power and what is just can be two very different things. It spread to everyone because it became part of man through Adam, a trust was broken and there was no way to keep it from others who came after them other than God force compliance.
I believe it was because Adam and Eve were the first people and no one else could carry on the line, th Bible says nothing about any children until after the fall.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.