“Intelligence,” OUT OF NOTHINGNESS!

[Harris]

I look at time in two different ways. One religious and second standard.

Religious view:
Allah is the creator of everything (including space). He regulates all events and actions in the universe. He determines to what extent His created beings would exist. In other words, He allocate age to every being. His creatures are time dependent, but He is not. Allah’s activities is time for His created beings. He is time Himself.

“Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).”
Al Baqarah (2)
-Verse 255-
Quran


Standard view:
Aging + Relative motions = Human sense of Time

Please also check my response to Pickup_shonuff below

In other words, you're playing fast and loose with the definition of "time" in order to disguise the fact that your claim is not scientifically nor philosophically sound.

I am amazed how people in this forum love to taunt without ever giving reasons for their critiques. Please show what you have in contrast to:

Aging + Relative motions = Human sense of Time

Everything in the universe has a Local frame of causality that means everything in the universe is reliant on the laws that run the universe. However, the cause (whatever it maybe) that prompted Big Bang, transcends the scope of universe.

Yes, everything in the universe has a local frame of causality, which is the universe itself. You have no reference point, i.e. no local frame of causality, that is relative to the universe to describe it in terms that we can understand and apply to every day life.

Our everyday life is part of this universe. Every event that we observe is happening within the frame of known universe. Therefore, the reference point is the known universe.

You're attempting to say that the first cause must have existed previously to the Big Bang, but we are talking about a quantum state completely absent of time where these macroscopic principles you're trying to use do not apply.

Please elaborate what you mean by “but we are talking about a quantum state completely absent of time”

Causality without time within the scope of universe is not possible but what about the causality that originated the universe. Is there any reason to believe that before Big Bang time exist in similar way how we perceive it today?


There is no reason to believe that causality is a valid principle when time does not exist.

Then how comes you are advocating the events in quantum state that are completely absent of time?

---

When to an evolutionist a genuine scientific evidence is presented as a fact against evolution, almost immediately he moved away from the scientific material and jumped into the areas of philosophy, theology, the worldview, etc. He just start throwing lots of smoke and name-calling and get people even not to listen to the message of science by essentially criticising the messenger.


Name one single documented instance of this actually happening.

Watch recent debate between Kraus and WLC in Australia. You will find Kraus exhibiting all those qualities what I have mentioned.

---

Harris the logical comes forth and gives us the qur'an... how unexpected... -.-'

DNA didn't just pop into existence all built up. It must have evolved from simpler self-replicating structures... RNA being a close relative.

Seriously, people are telling you to go learn about the things you're trying to inform us about.... it is clear that you are ignorant of what science tells us about those things. Go read up on them, but refrain from using your crappy biased sources.
Start on wikipedia, follow the references, seek them out on google scholar and learn.... it will be a slow process, given that there are now tons of articles on the subjects and few are attempts at summarizing it, but it will be worth it.
Like I said somewhere else, probably to someone else, your logic fails you due to wrong premisses. Endeavor to make your premises as correct as possible and you can't be faulted for them...
Do what you've been doing... and you're dismissed like a pigeon playing chess.

I am thankful for your concern about educating me. You are most welcome to give me few lessons. Please provide me the links to scientific papers and books which answer the following questions in terms of verifiable scientific proofs:

1. What is the origin of living cell?
2. Where are the transient animals?
3. What new organs, a positive mutation has produced?

---

It's really hard not to stereotype the Muslims on this site, because... Damn.

There's nothing wrong with stereotyping, as long as you give each individual a fair chance to prove they aren't limited to the stereotype.

These guys have had plenty of chances. Nobody said, "Here's a Muslim. He's going to be an irrational Quran-thumper." They jumped right into their stereotype boxes of their own volition.

This is an unfortunate fact that man (theist and atheist) love to follow his own volition. If he has to undermine conscience and rationality to achieve his comfort, he feels no hesitation to do that.

---

Religious view:
Allah is the creator of everything (including space).

Before space existed where was god?
Before there was time in what sense did god exist?

When there was no nothing, there was God. When there would be nothing, there would be God. I ask you to ponder over these two sentences with patience.

He regulates all events and actions in the universe.

So he made me an atheist why?

Allah has bestowed us intellect. We use this intellect to make choices according to our own convenience. It is our choice, what faith we want to live with. You have a belief there is no god and I have faith in God who created everything. Both of us have our own reasons to substantiate our beliefs. He had not made you atheist and me Muslim. We made ourselves atheist and Muslim by using our freedom of choice.
For me it sounds awkward that everything is popping out of nothing without any reason because what I see in nature is things are not coming into existence without any cause. That is why I am not atheist.

He determines to what extent His created beings would exist. In other words, He allocate age to every being. His creatures are time dependent, but He is not. Allah’s activities is time for His created beings. He is time Himself.

You do realise that makes no sense.

It will make sense only if you ponder over to what all scientific facts are pointing. Science is saying everything in nature and universe are well organized. It is out of question that universe administer its own self. Universe is far away, we human beings, who have intellect and have power to manage certain things, cannot govern our own bodies in manner we think feasible for us. We cannot stop our ageing! Even we have no control over our heartbeats.
You recognize many unperceivable things because you feel them through their effects on you. However, when you exploit all the facilities that nature has provided for your living you still do not believe in God simply because He is not ostensive. Thus, what makes you explicit in rejecting God after you see humongous signs in complicated functions and structures in nature and universe if you are not simply following your own desires?