Evidence God Exists: Part II

[Caecilian]

Angel, you see these things as 'clues that god exists', because you already believe that god exists. That is the definition of a presupposed conclusion. What we are all trying to tell you is that none of these things are actual, demonstrable evidence that god exists. Unless you already believe in god.

You can say that about anything. Let's say someone believes in the benefits of yoga, and another person feels it's useless. The yogi cannot make an argument for yoga because it will be deemed a presupposed conclusion. Nevermind that the argument could reveal a truth.

Ho hum. Another fallacious argument.

In this case the fallacy is a false analogy, based on conflating subjective and objective usefulness.

Yoga may be useful to a person (i.e. subjectively useful) regardless of whether it has any objective health benefits. When a yogi says that yoga is useful, they normally mean that it is useful to themselves. Similarly, you might find it useful to ask yourself 'What would Jesus want me to do?' when dealing with an ethical problem. The fact that this might be useful to you is a fact about your subjective experience. No one else is in a position to contradict you, since only you are you.

However, the world has an objective existence (I assume that you aren't some sort of extreme relativist), and thus knowledge of the world can be more or less objective. Scientific method is the best way that we have of arriving at more or less objective knowledge- and its based on evidence. So if a yogi claims that yoga has some sort of objective benefits, for example that it leads to reduced heart problems or better aerobic fitness, then those are claims that are testable, and require evidence to back them up.

If you were simply claiming that you found belief in God useful in your personal life, then I wouldn't be arguing with you. I might say that I get along find with being an atheist, and that I regard your religion as a crutch, but I really couldn't say much more than that. But what you're trying to show is that there are reasons to believe that God exists out there, in the objective Universe. And that requires evidence, not fallacious nonsense.