Evidence God Exists: Part II

[Watson]

Well, seeing as you are human, you exist on this plain and if you had that power, you'd be something of a hero, I'd definitely expect you to do something to save my child.

But you don't expect your "all-loving" and "all-powerful" deity to do the same? Maybe if I save your child's life I am somehow going against this deity's "plan".

I love how you jump to previously prepared arguments and preconceived notions of what I believe, instead of actually having the humility to ask me what I believe in. You absolutely would be the kind of person to generalize and assume I think it's all a part of 'God's plan.'

For the record, I expect a human man living and interacting in human ways with the human world to interfere and attempt to save another human being, yes. You have been given a life worth living, and so has everyone else. Use it. Learn from it. Don't just sit back and try and blame someone else for your own misfortunes or the misfortunes of others.

No, you'd pretty much be a dick. You aren't even going to explain yourself? You're such an asshole.

And, again, your deity gets a pass?

God explains Himself quite clearly to those who don't stuff their ears full of bullshit and ignroe Him.

Actully, other than the 'stupid' part, that's pretty much it. You know, you can label it 'rationalization' if you want, but there is still the implied rational in there.

Oh, come on! Like "rational" and "rationalize" mean the same thing?

Rationalize, if I am correct, means the process of inventing or searching for rational explanations for things. Nip me in the bud if I'm wrong, but that is still seeking answers at the very least.

But I'll tell you this. Someone who understands God has a much better chance of comprehending why that child died and why that child was taken to Heaven(bare with me here, for the sake of our discussion) than does an Atheist who not only doesn't know God, but doesn't understand Him in the slightest.

How can you "comprehend" a being you have never met, seen, or spoken with? Substitute "the Easter Bunny" for "God" in your above statement and it's equally valid.

I've met Him, I've Seen Him, I've spoken with Him. Your inability to comprehend that there are different ways of communicating, seeing, and meeting someone other than those taught to you by society is not my problem.

Who's to say? Our souls(again, bare with me) know better than we do. You've no idea what decisions were made before your birth, supposing God exists, as do souls.

Our "souls"? What the hell is that? As far as I know, people do not have "souls". Unless you can present any evidence to prove me wrong.

*sigh*
Did I, or did I not, say 'bare with me'? What I meant by that was, for the sake of discussion, presume that a soul exists. Presume that humans do, in factm have souls. I guess that was asking to much, because if we really wanted to delve into souls theologically, you would walk away laughing yoru ass off at a concept you don't understand in the slightest.

No, because you're just stupid.

I'm not the one who believes in invisible deities.

Where did 'invisible' come from?

Did I say the parent should do nothing for their child? No I did not.

But are we not "God's children"? Then why does he do nothing when they contract horrible diseases?

Is the earth not also one of 'God's children'? Is the universe itself not one of 'God's children'? So, if God believes in free will, and presume pleace that He does, then He isn't going to interfere with one of His children's work, say, the course of nature striking someone with cancer.

A good parent, or in this case, a perfect parent knows what is best for his or her child. Therefore, the parent is going to make decisions based on that understanding of what is best for the child. Do you trust your parents? Do you believe they love you and are looking out for you as best they can? If you don't, then things here begin to make sense. If you do, then ask yourself what those same parents would do if they were all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful creators of the universe. Go on. I know you have a brain and a heart, so use both of them.

That's not to say they shouldn't be upset and mourn the child, but they should look at themselves and say 'What have I learned? What do I value more now than ever?'

If I walked up to parent who lost a child and sanctimoniously said, "Now what have you learned from your child's death? What do you value now more than ever?", I would expect to get a mouthful of fist.

And it's not for you to walk up to them and ask that for this exact reason, dumbass! It's for them to ask or not ask of themselves, and if it hurts them and they make it through, it's all for the better. It's their decision whether they ask themselves the hard questions or not. And they will be the benefactor of having done such a thing, too.

And what does this mean anyway? That your deity allowed a child to suffer and die to "teach someone a lesson"? How incredibly cruel and immoral is that?

Your child whines and begs to ride her bicycle without training wheels. No matter how much you resist, she presses and presses the issue, when you know that she is not ready for that kind of thing. You advise her as such, and she still refuses to listen.

So you relent, and another concerned parent asks you "Why would you do that? You know she can't do it, and she'll probably get hurt."

I know my response would then be "Well, then she'll learn."

Perhaps that child isn't the one giving the lesson, but is the teacher...?

Oh, please. Gag me.

Didn't expect you to understand.

A God who believes in free will?

What the hell does "free will" have to do with a child getting cancer?

See above, about training wheels, about Mother Nature, and about free will. End.

Yeah! 'Cause fuck you, Nature! How dare I be born with brown hair! I want blonde hair! I'm going to whine and bitch about it when there's nothing I can do t- oh...there's this thing called hair dye? I can CHANGE MY HAIR COLOR?!

But yeah, still, fuck you Nature.

You don't get it, do you? We're not talking about NATURE! We're talking about your deity! A deity who can supposedly do anything. A deity who apparently chooses not to help children dying with a horrible disease. And being born with a certain hair color is not on the same level as getting cancer.

Yes, it is the same level as getting cancer, and yes, we are talking about Nature here. Suppose, just for one second suppose, that Nature is a conscious being like you or I yet in a different 'format', so to speak. If Nature is conscious, and consciousness means choice, then whose choice was it to give the child cancer...?

Hair color applies because they are both things beyond our control, and we shouldn't bitch about them unless we plan to try and change our fate(I.e.- hair dye for people who don't like their hair color, treatment for those who get cancer.)

I'm not saying it isn't very sad that Billy has cancer. But I'm saying he, and his family, should make the most of what they've got. Instead of complaining that nature did what comes natural to it.

And, again, nature has nothing to do with this discussion. Let's say "nature" gave the kid cancer. Your deity can cure it in an instant! Why does he not?

Training wheels. That is all.

Oh for fuck's sake. It's very sad that those people have to live in trailers, yes. But, again, should they blame Mother Nature and the EARTH ITSELF for their bad mood about it?

Where did I say anything about blaming "Mother Nature" and "the Earth"? I'm talking about your deity doing nothing to prevent devestating natural disasters.

The thing is, you are talking about Earth, and you don't even realize it. You're so inapable of finding anyone to blame, you have to pin it on God, then in some childish act of "F U AND YOUR PARENTAL AUTHORITY" bullshit, you turn around and deny that God even exists. Then you have no one left to blame, so you end up running around in a little circle trying to make it seem like Nature is some cool, callous bitch.

Again, if I had the power to prevent a hurricane from striking a populated area and I did nothing, I would be despised and villified.

Because you are a human being.

But you give your deity a pass.

Because He is a God, and He is a very good parent who gave every living and non-living thing in the universe a place to play around in.

You simply spout platitudes like, "We can't understand why God does what he does".[quote]
I said we can't understand it if we aren't willing to learn about it. You, clearly, are not willing to learn.

[quote]BULLSHIT! If this deity came down from the skies and explained why he allowed children to suffer with cancer, or why he did nothing to prevent natural disasters, we would certainly be capable of understanding it.

And then faith, belief, trust and love would be down the drain. When you tell someone you love them, do you do it just to remidn them that you love them and you don't want them to leave, or do you do it simply because you love them? I hope for the latter, or what you are experiencing is a very mis-construed form of love.

And, again, perhaps you're simply looking in the wrong places for yours explanations and understandings. You look to science to for answers to human problems, you look to Atheism for answers to problems of the universe and moral guidance. but if you would take the time to open yourself, learn, grow and become an ever-changing person, you might discover a thing or two that you never thought possible.


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I am calling complete bullshit on this, just as I would any person stating that they were a "True Atheist" converting over to an actual "Religion"...

Call bullshit all you like, I'm not even sure what "True Atheist" means.

I do not doubt you had questions, I do not doubt that you misunderstood certain aspects of Christianity at the time of your doubts.....

Thank you.

However, what I state, is that you were never an Atheist if you claim yourself as being a "Christian" or for that matter; any claimed organized belief based on fucking ancient "BOOKS"......

I am an Agnostic Christian, which means I believe in the teachings, I believe in the ideas and principles of the Christian religion, but I do not know them or claim them to be true.

Furthermore, my belief in God is quite seperate from my Christianity, and based on my own personal experience, coupled with my observations of the world around me. I have read very little of the Bible, but I am aware of it's contents and meaning through study of this life I am living.

You were never an "Atheist".......Agnostic, maybe......But not an Atheist.......

You're right, I never was an Atheist to begin with.

Quit trying to sale the personal hope and direct your opinions to rational conclusions....

Sorry that you don't believe in hope, but that's kind of the point of Christianity, and to me is a very rational conclusion in and of itself.


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Things, to have merit, need supporting evidence, not faith.

Evidence, to need merit, needs trust. Trust, to have merit, needs faith.


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A supernatural being that is there right from the beginning without any explanation whatsoever for its existence

Isn't something without explanation much less complex than something with a background to it?

that creates an entire universe, is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent - all without explanation -

All true of God. All very simple ideas, when lacking an explanation for how. Not how, but 'why?' is the question which should be asked, in this case.

is about as complex a thing as I can think of. How is that simple?

And that is why you fail. I'm just kidding with you, your argument was actually sound.