(July 31, 2014 at 12:53 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Because might does not make right in any universe. Might is irrelevant to what is morally good or justified, except that with great mightiness comes great responsibility.
Ok, but you just restated my question. I am asking why might does not make right in a purely material Universe?
Quote: Mickey Mouse is a character, not a person. If you want a good analogy, think of an example where it's okay to own a person.
You’re distinction is irrelevant. If you create something you own it, God created us therefore God owns us. We cannot own other people because we did not create them, God did.
Quote: Both: "God is good because He is the ultimate standard of goodness, I start there not end there."—SW
Yes that’s reasoning from an axiom; that is not the same thing as circular reasoning (restating the premise in the conclusion). A meter stick is a meter long because it’s the standard of what a meter is, and God is good because His character is the standard of what goodness is.
Quote: The rationality of an axiom depends on how self-evident it is, not the quality of the schemes you can erect on it.
Well the attributes of God are self-evident (Romans 1) but axioms in logical reasoning are not necessarily self-evident, they are assumed to be true a prior. If they were all self-evident there’d be no reason to assume they were true ahead of time.
Axiom- Logic, Mathematics . a proposition that is assumed without proof for the sake of studying the consequences that follow from it. (Webster’s)
Quote: I'm not surprised by your belief in it, I'm surprised by your need to say it to us when it's obvious to any idiot it just makes you and other Christians sound like you never progressed past a playground level of argumentation. It's actually counter-productive, like telling me I'm going to go to hell if I don't convert: I already know your position on that, what would be news is if you DIDN'T think that, but hearing you say it reminds me that your religion requires you to believe that I'm consigned to eternal torture and that you agree that's my just fate, that it's what SHOULD happen to me.
You really think that telling someone that they suppress that which they know to be true is as harsh as telling them they will spend eternity in Hell? Hardly.
Quote: Watching you lot stumble around ignoring the rather good advice of Jesus to be 'as wise as serpents and harmless as doves' is actually gratifying as I could never do more to discredit theism than what the evangelists for it do. Jesus is never portrayed as trying to convince someone who didn't believe the rest of it that they'd go to hell if they don't accept him as their saviour, but what did he know, eh?
Jesus was hardly as passive as you think. In the first half of the saying from Matthew that you did not quote he said that Christians will be like sheep amongst the wolves. Let’s look at some more since you brought Jesus up…
“There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? 3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”- Luke 13:1-5 ESV
“You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” –Matthew 12:34
“21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.”- Matthew 5:21-22 ESV
“29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.”- Matthew 5:29 ESV
“51 Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. 52 For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.” Luke 12:51-53 ESV
I am not here to tell anyone they are going to Hell, and I have never done so on here. However, let’s not pretend that Jesus never spoke harsh truths to people.
Quote: It would be easier to say the same about you if you weren't sniggering that I already believe you. Apparently you don't believe that 'a fool says in his heart, there is no God'. And if Paul were divinely inspired, you'd think he would come up with something better than the fallacy of affirming the consequent to make his case.
Fools do say in their heart that there is no god, but they also know in their heart that there is a god. That’s why they are being so foolish, they are claiming to deny what they know to be true. It’s like the mother who says her son is a good boy who’d never steal anything but she for some reason hides her credit cards and money from him.
Affirming the consequent is a formal logical fallacy, Paul never presents a formal syllogism so it’s not possible for him to be committing that fallacy. If you’d be kind of enough to point me to what you are referring to I’d be more than happy to take a look at it though.
