Why knocking is so important.

[Drich]

Why can't God confirm He exists *and* teach us about his true self? I mean, c'mon.. the atheist made it this far already by choosing to humble themselves and sincerely search for God. Is God really going to be that tight and still refuse the atheist a chance at being saved based on a technicality?

It makes more sense for God to not exist, than for this benevolent being with a will to be in relationship with us to continually deny us the knowledge of his existence unless the planets align, and we are in this perfect state of mind while knowing precisely the nature of God such that our view of Him isn't flawed.

We're only human, after all.

Bump

Their is only one of me and many of you. I am about 4 pages behind. I answer all posts in order.

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Are you being deliberately obtuse?

I asked him to clear this up pages ago. No answer.

Edit: got ninjaad there. Please disregard.

And edit 2:
Read his answer. I'd say he is being deliberately obtuse.

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So.. You can't provide the collaborating evidence I asked for to support your "quote" of what I said? Rather you moved to a red herring tactic to try and take the spotlight of your intellectual dishonesty.

Sorry sport it's not going to be that easy. The reason you will not be able to support your quote is because you are not quoting anything I would actually say In The context you were using it. Where you failed was that you were representing a general understanding of Christianity, and assuming I would agree.

I don't, therefore your efforts can be labeled at best inaccurate/creator of straw men in your initial post, but your follow up work and this red herring tactic escalates you to the level of intellectually dishonest.

What does it say about your character if you have to resort to intellectual dishonesty to 'win' a foolish argument?

I didn't realise admitting I may have misunderstood and asking what you do mean qualifies as a 'red herring' and 'intellectual dishonesty'.

see above post

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This is why I said why can't he reveal himself and also teach us about his *true* self? It's like me saying my friend exists, and you say 'oh, your friend John?' and then my friend speaks for himself and says 'my name is actually Bob'.

Simple.

What road blocks do you experience teaching a YEC about evolution?
Typically if a 'truth' seemingly conflicts with what the bible says or does not say then for the devoute this is a sign of the devil trying to trick them.

If the Devil is real by evidence of this misidentified trickery, then that would mean their version of God is also real.

As it is, God has us come to terms with our false versions and abandon them on our own, and if we are to simply to keep seeking/knocking we will find Him.

simpler.

I remember you stating that the 'true' Christian teaching is that God is merely benevolent and not quite in the ranks of omnibenevolence. Therefore I'm stating back the things that you believe in my argument, so as to be on the same page with you.

But, the truth is. 'Benevolence' is and will always be a matter of perspective.

Yes, we have to humble ourselves, I get that. And that is where my argument began; some atheists do indeed humble themselves and so.. etc etc.
Read my post again perhaps.

P.s. Hi Drich!

And when they do they get their prayers answered. In that they have their faith taken from them by the trials of life.

Again, all of this is outlined in scripture in the very teachings of Christ. We are all told these parables and meanings in sunday school. Across the board in all forms of Christianity a parable of Christ is generally left as it reads, as Christ Himself gives them explaination.

If said atheist turns from God completely because the faith of his fathers will not work for him, then that shows a distinct lack of Humility.

Also good to see you chime in.

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If someone had a false (XYZ) view of me I would want to reveal the true (123) view of myself to them and clear the confusion up. I certainly would not avoid them hoping that one day they would have a 123 epiphany of me. That would be retarded.

There are literally billions of views of god. I would think he would want to clear the air up some but it doesn't happen. The reason it doesn't happen is because God is imaginary.

If some one has a False XYZ it is because that particular XYZ is what they want inorder to live their life.

You were a Christian right? You had a false XYZ, what did you do with once you identified as false? Did you continue to live your life under XYZ? Or, did you move on to another XYZ? Are you happy with what you have now? Or do you still seek God?

This life is not about being confronted with the known Glory of God. This life is a prooving ground. We have been given this short time span to proove to our selves where our Hearts truly lie. If they yern for God will will A/S/K until we find what our hearts want. If not our hearts will find what ever it is looking for, so that we may know that God's judgement is just once it is pronounced.

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Drich, are you God? You sure do speak for him a lot.

I speak where the Spirit gives me utterance. (A Spiritual Gift) If at any point any of you want BCV to back up what i have said simply ask for it.

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What is the point of describing god by analogy when you can't demonstrate god exists, much less you have any reliable means of determining what god's attributes are?

Making a lie more vivid does not make it any more convincing.

Proof of God is offered to all of use. i can not provide it because God is not something i own. However said proof in the Way of God Himself is offered, and in that i can offer to show you what steps you must take to take God up on his offer.

The analogies are to simplify this process and understanding.

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God is not asking you to believe out of a vacuum. As with what I told to us in my last post. Apart of the reason you met silence is because God is not in the business of supporting a corrupt view of Himself. Meaning if you believe God is supposed to be XYZ, and He is Really 123, then by showing Himself to you while you hold an XYZ system of belief supports an inaccurate version of Him that will have you support this corrupt version rather than God Himself.

Like I said the first time: endless goalpost shifting. You have no proof your god is 123 other than "cuz you say so". You're already admitted your system can't produce reliable results, and that you can't tell the difference between genuine revelation and self-delusion:

That's not to say someone steeped in self delusion could not use this method to confirm whatever he likes. But, again as I have illustrated some perfectly adjusted member of society could also use this method to find themselves a spouse.

Now, prove to me when you say God is 123 that your revelation was real and not imaginary.

what kind of proof are you looking for?

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No. You haven't. I read through this thread. I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. Your reasons revolve around the bible and your interpretation of that. I will be blunt: I do not find the bible to be good evidence of anything. Based on its history of it said frogs were amphibians I would have to go and get a biology textbook, take a biology class, and dissect a frog before I believed it. So let me rephrase this in a couple ways.

I work in a research lab studying concrete. If I scan a sample and the data reads out that it contains 29% air by volume what do I do? I know I set up the machine correctly. Perhaps if I know nothing else then I accept it. But if I know that concrete with more than a 9% air content is unstable and won't set what do I conclude? Or, to be more accurate, I have an old handbook before they had accurate measurements that say paste mixes can be up to 30% air but that book had been discredited and is no longer used since it uses improper measurement methods. I have a newer book that says different, and all my other test data says a sample can have no more than 9 or 10%, and that other tests have indicated that this sample should have a content of 6%. Do I accept the single data point of 29%? Or do I toss it out and see what else could be going on?

You say your god can be tested by A/S/K method. I ask on what premise we can even begin to assume that this is a valid test. If you say scriptural then you have failed that.

Because in the bible there are promises. If you do XYZ god will do 123.

I and many many others have done XYZ and we all have received 123.

If we did XYZ and did not receive 123 then we could indetify the bible as being inaccurate.

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Ah, no. A/S/King is an objective process that has one examine and quest for the truth of God.

If I do not currently presuppose a god exists, how am I to 'examine and quest for the truth of God'?

How is this any different than 'faking it 'til I make it'?

The biggest problem with your A/S/K 'method' is that no matter how much we tell you that we tried, you have a built in, ready to go reason why it didn't work.

"You didn't try for long enough"
"You weren't sincere enough"
Or whatever...

Since you are so convinced, it has to be something we are doing wrong, and nothing to do with the real possibility that you are simply wrong, and that you have been convinced for bad reasons.

It's like anything else that your unsure of. lets say it is like lazer eye surgery. It's been around for a while, and there are many who have had the proceedure and for them it works out great. But for you your still uncertain. So how would you go about prooving to your self that lazer eye surgery is good for you?

You ask around to people who have had it, you go on line and research and if your serious you talk to a Doctor until you come to a conclusion

Dont look now but that is the ASK SEEK KNOCK method working in a non Spiritual context. (No Faith required)

In the same way when we are looking for God we ask People, and in prayer. We seek in places like this, and we knock by repeating the fore mention process till we get what we were looking for.