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On naturalism and consciousness
#74
RE: On naturalism and consciousness
(August 25, 2014 at 4:40 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:
(August 17, 2014 at 11:29 am)rasetsu Wrote: The first thing to note is that what you have is an argument from ignorance. "I can't imagine X, therefore not X." This is a minor point, so let's move on.
Let’s not. People that see an “argument from ignorance” typically accept that physical monism as the default position. I think the real question for these people is this: If all naturalism can offer is its own promissory note then why should it be preferred over any other theory? Sensible people take things as they appear to be until shown otherwise. Since dualism appears to be the case, why not accept it until the naturalists can actually produce a robust theory of consciousness.
This is all irrelevant to the question of whether the argument posed is a fallacious argument from ignorance. It has nothing to do with the physicalist position being assumed. Nor with whether dualism is sensible. These are red herrings that obfuscate the primary fault with the argument. As posed, the argument is invalid. No amount of whining about default positions will change that.


(August 25, 2014 at 4:40 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:
(August 17, 2014 at 11:29 am)rasetsu Wrote: …it must also explain how thought is inherently about things. Until you can do that, you're left with the rather unsatisfying "it just is”[/i]
That is an unfair demand. Subjectivity is experienced directly and without mediation. You know thoughts are about things because that’s how thoughts, and other qualitative experiences, are known.
And yet that's the same demand which you made of physicalism above. That's special pleading.

None of your declarations about what experience is establish that it is what you say. They're just bare assertions.
[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
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Messages In This Thread
On naturalism and consciousness - by FallentoReason - August 17, 2014 at 2:55 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Lucanus - August 17, 2014 at 3:53 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by FallentoReason - August 17, 2014 at 7:59 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Lucanus - August 17, 2014 at 11:14 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 17, 2014 at 6:04 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Angrboda - August 17, 2014 at 11:29 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by FallentoReason - August 17, 2014 at 11:45 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Angrboda - August 18, 2014 at 8:39 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by robvalue - August 17, 2014 at 4:08 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - August 17, 2014 at 4:22 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by FallentoReason - August 17, 2014 at 8:12 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - August 18, 2014 at 6:33 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by stonedape - August 17, 2014 at 4:36 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Michael - August 17, 2014 at 4:53 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by FallentoReason - August 17, 2014 at 8:51 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by FallentoReason - August 17, 2014 at 9:29 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Lucanus - August 18, 2014 at 3:03 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 18, 2014 at 3:27 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Lucanus - August 18, 2014 at 4:50 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 18, 2014 at 5:01 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Chas - September 1, 2014 at 3:50 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 17, 2014 at 5:03 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Whateverist - August 22, 2014 at 1:42 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 22, 2014 at 4:08 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by ignoramus - August 17, 2014 at 8:02 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by stonedape - August 17, 2014 at 8:51 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 17, 2014 at 8:51 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 17, 2014 at 11:19 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Welsh cake - August 17, 2014 at 3:45 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by ignoramus - August 17, 2014 at 5:49 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 17, 2014 at 7:10 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Lucanus - August 17, 2014 at 6:22 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 17, 2014 at 6:48 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Angrboda - August 17, 2014 at 6:52 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 17, 2014 at 7:09 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 18, 2014 at 1:35 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 17, 2014 at 11:42 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Lucanus - August 18, 2014 at 5:44 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by robvalue - August 18, 2014 at 6:44 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 18, 2014 at 11:29 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by FallentoReason - August 21, 2014 at 4:59 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by FallentoReason - August 20, 2014 at 11:17 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - August 21, 2014 at 5:24 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Angrboda - August 22, 2014 at 12:20 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 21, 2014 at 6:44 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - August 21, 2014 at 8:30 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bladevalant546 - August 21, 2014 at 8:31 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 21, 2014 at 9:05 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Cato - August 22, 2014 at 12:36 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bladevalant546 - August 21, 2014 at 9:25 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 21, 2014 at 11:42 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Thumpalumpacus - August 22, 2014 at 3:12 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Angrboda - August 22, 2014 at 5:26 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 22, 2014 at 6:31 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 22, 2014 at 7:42 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 23, 2014 at 8:30 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 23, 2014 at 9:08 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 24, 2014 at 1:28 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Whateverist - August 22, 2014 at 5:39 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 24, 2014 at 3:36 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 24, 2014 at 10:48 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 24, 2014 at 3:33 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 24, 2014 at 3:50 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 24, 2014 at 7:16 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 24, 2014 at 7:46 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 24, 2014 at 9:37 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 24, 2014 at 10:33 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 24, 2014 at 10:44 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 24, 2014 at 11:39 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 25, 2014 at 9:55 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 25, 2014 at 1:02 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 25, 2014 at 1:39 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 25, 2014 at 9:33 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 25, 2014 at 10:46 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 25, 2014 at 11:47 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 26, 2014 at 12:09 am
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 27, 2014 at 10:26 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - August 25, 2014 at 7:19 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Whateverist - August 26, 2014 at 11:25 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 26, 2014 at 7:04 am
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 26, 2014 at 11:09 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - August 26, 2014 at 5:32 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - August 26, 2014 at 11:25 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Whateverist - August 27, 2014 at 1:35 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - August 27, 2014 at 10:05 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Whateverist - August 27, 2014 at 9:14 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 27, 2014 at 9:31 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Whateverist - August 28, 2014 at 12:34 am
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by ManMachine - August 26, 2014 at 7:42 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 27, 2014 at 8:47 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Brian37 - August 27, 2014 at 9:56 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 28, 2014 at 12:55 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 28, 2014 at 9:02 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 28, 2014 at 1:41 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 28, 2014 at 4:13 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 28, 2014 at 6:16 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 28, 2014 at 6:46 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 29, 2014 at 1:47 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 29, 2014 at 2:22 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - August 29, 2014 at 6:11 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - August 29, 2014 at 1:18 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 29, 2014 at 3:23 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - August 28, 2014 at 12:51 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2014 at 8:01 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 29, 2014 at 12:19 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - August 29, 2014 at 1:31 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Ben Davis - August 29, 2014 at 8:28 am
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Ben Davis - August 29, 2014 at 12:02 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Ben Davis - August 29, 2014 at 8:30 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 30, 2014 at 10:34 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 30, 2014 at 11:10 am
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by tjakey - August 29, 2014 at 10:30 am
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 29, 2014 at 11:53 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 30, 2014 at 8:18 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - August 29, 2014 at 8:21 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 30, 2014 at 2:53 am
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Whateverist - August 30, 2014 at 9:50 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 30, 2014 at 1:07 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2014 at 1:31 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 30, 2014 at 3:31 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2014 at 4:52 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 30, 2014 at 7:45 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2014 at 8:54 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2014 at 9:15 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2014 at 10:09 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2014 at 10:31 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 31, 2014 at 1:36 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 31, 2014 at 2:11 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 31, 2014 at 8:44 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 31, 2014 at 10:02 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 31, 2014 at 6:12 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 31, 2014 at 6:32 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - August 31, 2014 at 6:53 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 1, 2014 at 10:45 am
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 1, 2014 at 3:17 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 1, 2014 at 4:50 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 1, 2014 at 6:40 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 1, 2014 at 6:59 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 1, 2014 at 8:28 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 1, 2014 at 9:55 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 1, 2014 at 11:31 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 2, 2014 at 12:10 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 2, 2014 at 12:02 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 2, 2014 at 3:18 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 1, 2014 at 7:16 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 1, 2014 at 7:32 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 2, 2014 at 3:56 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 2, 2014 at 7:34 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - September 2, 2014 at 8:06 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 2, 2014 at 8:22 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 2, 2014 at 9:41 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 3, 2014 at 2:07 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 3, 2014 at 8:34 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 3, 2014 at 9:45 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 3, 2014 at 1:21 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - September 3, 2014 at 5:34 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - September 4, 2014 at 11:36 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 3, 2014 at 7:56 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 3, 2014 at 11:49 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 4, 2014 at 11:41 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - September 4, 2014 at 1:47 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by FatAndFaithless - September 4, 2014 at 1:51 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - September 4, 2014 at 2:01 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Angrboda - September 4, 2014 at 2:15 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 4, 2014 at 6:30 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 4, 2014 at 2:11 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 4, 2014 at 2:37 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 4, 2014 at 6:34 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 4, 2014 at 6:48 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 5, 2014 at 12:02 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 5, 2014 at 7:29 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Chas - September 5, 2014 at 10:17 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 5, 2014 at 10:52 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Chas - September 13, 2014 at 7:29 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 13, 2014 at 8:04 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Chas - September 14, 2014 at 8:24 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 14, 2014 at 9:11 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Chas - September 14, 2014 at 12:27 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 14, 2014 at 6:19 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - September 14, 2014 at 1:59 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Chas - September 15, 2014 at 11:28 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 15, 2014 at 4:22 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Chas - September 15, 2014 at 4:46 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 15, 2014 at 9:26 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 13, 2014 at 9:27 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 13, 2014 at 11:40 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 14, 2014 at 1:33 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 14, 2014 at 2:15 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 14, 2014 at 3:01 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 14, 2014 at 4:22 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 14, 2014 at 3:47 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 6, 2014 at 11:01 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 6, 2014 at 5:28 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - September 6, 2014 at 5:46 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 6, 2014 at 8:55 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 6, 2014 at 11:30 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 7, 2014 at 2:34 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 7, 2014 at 1:05 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 7, 2014 at 7:21 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 7, 2014 at 10:04 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 7, 2014 at 10:12 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 7, 2014 at 10:27 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 7, 2014 at 10:35 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 7, 2014 at 10:47 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 8, 2014 at 12:33 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - September 8, 2014 at 11:16 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 8, 2014 at 7:53 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - September 9, 2014 at 11:40 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - September 8, 2014 at 8:41 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Ben Davis - September 8, 2014 at 9:03 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - September 8, 2014 at 9:24 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Ben Davis - September 8, 2014 at 9:35 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 8, 2014 at 6:45 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - September 8, 2014 at 8:07 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 9, 2014 at 12:35 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - September 9, 2014 at 6:39 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 9, 2014 at 7:29 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - September 9, 2014 at 8:17 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by naimless - September 8, 2014 at 11:20 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 9, 2014 at 11:37 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 10, 2014 at 2:40 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - September 10, 2014 at 8:14 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 10, 2014 at 12:14 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 10, 2014 at 6:09 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - September 11, 2014 at 11:46 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Angrboda - September 13, 2014 at 8:06 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 11, 2014 at 1:10 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 11, 2014 at 2:36 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 12, 2014 at 1:37 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 13, 2014 at 8:34 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 13, 2014 at 12:36 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 13, 2014 at 3:48 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 13, 2014 at 11:07 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 14, 2014 at 1:37 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by ShaMan - September 14, 2014 at 1:40 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 14, 2014 at 1:52 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by ShaMan - September 14, 2014 at 2:05 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 14, 2014 at 3:44 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 14, 2014 at 4:24 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by MusicLovingAtheist - September 14, 2014 at 5:30 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 14, 2014 at 6:56 pm

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