On naturalism and consciousness

[Surgenator]

And you still haven't shown how concepts can give a physical universe. The Matrix example that you quote doesn't work because the Matrix is still in a physical reality.

The physical universe AS WE EXPERIENCE IT is already purely conceptual. Do you really think that the desk you see is the same as what is really there?

Yes the desk I see is really there, because I can test it with my other sences that are independent of each other.

You are stuck in this idea that "I can only have experience, then all is experience." That is a non sequitur. Lets say there is an unfortunate man out there that can only smell. Is he suppose to think the universe is nothing but smells. No, that would be ridiculous. Just because we're limitied to our experiences doesn't mean there isn't a grander universe out there. That grander universe can be infered from our experiences from observation and testing.

The question is whether, if you dig really deep, anything is really there at all beyond the idea of relationships. Seen a QM particle lately? Seen a photon flipping ambiguously between particle and wave forms lately? No? Seen a wave function floating around in space anywhere? No? Seen any of the four fundamental forces in the universe? No? That's because these are ideas, with no observable boundaries in space and time. They do not exist except as ideas, at least insofar as we are capable of directly observing.

You're talking about things that we infered through observations and testing about a physical reality, and then say "have you seen it." That is a straw man. I haven't seen Antartica, but I can still infer that it exist.

You are correct that ideas exist in a mind. The mind is a set of processes in our brains. A process is a set of interactions between neurons. So whats the problem?

You point to problems with idealism that are direct parallels to physical monism. In physicalism God also exists-- as an idea, by which you mean a physical/chemical encoding in the brain.

Yes, concept of God is nothing but a set of processes in the brain. And concepts have no power over physical reality in physicalism. Hence, I can hold as many contradictory concepts in my brain as I want, it won't effect physical reality.

In idealism, God exists as an idea, but maybe not as part of that class of experience which is sharable-- i.e. the class of experience that involves observing things with the eyes, the hands, etc.

But I can think of a God concept that is sharable, just ask a Christian.

But don't let's worry about God. Let's think about a family member, say your mother.

No, we are not bringing in family members. That could too easily lead to personal attacks and away from the discussion. Come up with another example.

I'm saying since human reality is already purely experiential, and since the reality of an objective physical universe cannot be proven via experience, Occam's Razor dictates that the universe is more likely idealistic than physical monist.

Sorry, but you first have to show that idealist monism is a good model before inserting it. You have not.

The problem is that you have no workable model for HOW the complex physical interactions build a subjectively experiencing concsciousness.

Being through this, ANN is a workable model. The details are still being actively researched by people way more qualified than me.

You don't get to just skip that step, because that's what religious folk do: "See son, God made the universe, created man from the dust of the earth, and breathed life to it. And finally, we get morals." You wouldn't accept the result as proof of your assertions about process, and you shouldn't ask anyone else to accept your narrative without actually demonstrating it to be true. Waving at the brain is not sufficient to show exactly what it is about some systems which causes consciousness to exist rather than not to.

Your conflating "me not knowing" with "we can never know." And you don't get to insert your ideas because I don't have all the answers.