refuting misconceptions:1-women in Islam

[AtheistPhil]

i think you are right its not that clear in the translation but the arabic word used is really clear thats why i adviced you if you have anything you want to ask i can clarify as its the first time i notice that there is some words not clear in the translation as in arabic and i will ask for you for the best translation as my english is my second language so i may not be able to defirintiate complicated words.
I'm just asking for the explanation of the verse 2:223, and maybe the end of 2:222, in their authentic arabic language, but written in english of course :p, with a commentary on the meaning of the words. Please And by the way, english is also my second language (well third in theory, but second in practice).

[quote='mo3taz3nbar' pid='74390' dateline='1276123709']

because you can use birth control, and you can still force the two people to marry and have the child if there is one conceived outside of marriage. And abortions happens in married couples too!
In any case stoning both of them is certainly not a solution and it's barbaric!

the stoning is for the already married.and again for doing it in public you are not just doing that you are ruining the society by motivating people to do like that.

This shows that the whole abortion and AIDS argument to justify the stoning is completely false. Because an unmarried couple doing the same thing will ONLY get 80 lashes. But abortions happens much more in unmarried couple (from your link on abortion) and AIDS is spreading much more because of extra marital sex or outside marriage. The married couple can fuck in their home or in public, in both cases they will get an abortion if they don't want the child and the only spread of AIDS possible is between the two of them, the place of the fucking is irrelevant. So all you're doing is punishing public indecency by death for the married and 80 lashes for the unmarried. First this is extremely inegalitarian (and even backwards because unmarried sex is also a crime so it should be punished more severely if done in public than married sex in public), why not making 120 lashes for married couples ? It would be the same kind of punishment at least.

You're trying to tell me that stoning people for an action that could have lead (in not even 1% of the times) to a situation where a decision concerning the life of a foetus has to be made is the right thing to do ?

if you are born in a country that apply that believe me you will never do it and if you did it you will be sure not to be seen by 4 persons its that easy.

So you're acknowledging that it won't entirely stop people from fucking in public, so what's the point of KILLING a happily married couple for that ??? Why not a fine or jail. Those punishment are much more respectful of human life and dignity, and you'll get the same results ! And why a public stoning ??? this is a show of gratuitous sadistic violence in public ! How can one teach children that this is not only ok, but the right thing to do ??? you're encouraging violent remorseless behavior in children by doing that !

dont talk about killing a child that easy and its not about the 1% propability there are millions of babies killed because of that and again an agressive punishment is not to punish people its more like to stop them from doing ugly thing like killing babies if ther is a possibility to get a baby killed i would do anything to stop that

It has been proven that capital punishment does not stop people from killing each other, so it won't stop desperate poor people who can't afford to raise another child from having an abortion. This is the main argument for capital punishment: the fear! And you want to apply that to a whole lot of fellonies other than murder. It won't stop it, it will just let people live in fear, in a society which teaches them that revenge and manslaughter are righteous when done by the authorities.
If you're against abortion, you can punish it with jail if you want, it would be more ethical. But if you want to realy reduce abortions you need to educate people on birth control and sex.

of course i will not but you must believe that your ethics is based in what you are used to and there is a lot of things ignored in the west which is so bad like some people see that porn movies is ok for the women we see it as its sooo humilating so its not about ethics as its about the results you may get by doing something which is really very ugly i just mentioned abortion but there are many other things like aids for example believe me the results is so more bad.

Porn is ethical because no one forces a woman to do it. Women have the right to do whatever they want with their body as long as it doesn't infringe on other people's rights.

thats why there is agressive punishment for doing this in public as you are not just doing a wrong thing but you are motivating others to do like you

That's why you need to punish it, but why not just a very long jail sentence ? How could one be ok with violent public killing as a punishment (and even more for public indecency) ???

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you cant apply any punishment on a pregnant woman so they must be sure that she is not pregnant(all this depends on the ruler and the muslim scholars to decide how would they know)

ok

you are trying to get an error in this punishment while the main thing is that if you apply this punishment there will not be millions killed every year as the babies killed in abortion ONLY(check also how many are killed by aids every year) i have never in my life heard about stonning in the history of islam except for a couple of times

But the Sunnah permits it.

(but in fact i heard a lot about finding dead babies in the street or in the garbage these days) and as i mentioned before this punishment is to stop the wrong act not to stone people if you are born in a country that apply this you will never do it infront of 4 persons

dead babies means no abortion done. Criminalizing abortions won't stop people from killing and abandonning their newborn.

and by the way: a foetus is not a child.