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On naturalism and consciousness
RE: On naturalism and consciousness
(September 8, 2014 at 8:41 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: This quote from the current text I'm reading stuck out to me:

"If, instead of supposing that material structures themselves sometimes think, we assumed that there are immaterial substances, minds, or souls, associated with our bodies, we should have to say that matter somehow acts upon these immaterial things (in perception). This is as hard to understand as how material structures could think; yet we have to accept one or other of these. The problem is one that Berkeley saw very clearly: once we admit that there is a material world at all, we cannot deny that material things casually affect consciousness; but then we have no good reason for saying that material things could not be conscious; nor, finally, for saying that material things could not in themselves give rise to consciousness." - J.L. Mackie, 'The Miracle of Theism'

(Mackie's conclusion at the end of the chapter is that "once we have rejected, as we must, both the extreme materialism that would deny even distinctively mental properties and the complete immaterialism of Berkeley or of phenomenalism, we are stuck with some kind of dualism; and unless this is an absurdly extreme dualism it must admit psychophysical laws or lawlike correlations of some sort.")
First of all, is the bolded word meant to be "causally," or as you've quoted it?

I agree with Mackie's view on the problem of dualism, but I cannot understand why he "admits a material world at all." I assume in the text you quoted, he addressed why he isn't willing to consider an idealistic reality as a contender.

Question for you: you seem to be gravitating toward property dualism as well. If so, do you mean that mind may supervene on the brain, as a physical property, or that the nature of matter is intrinsically dual in nature, i.e. the universe is made of a kind of psychophysical stuff?
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Messages In This Thread
On naturalism and consciousness - by FallentoReason - August 17, 2014 at 2:55 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Lucanus - August 17, 2014 at 3:53 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by FallentoReason - August 17, 2014 at 7:59 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Lucanus - August 17, 2014 at 11:14 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 17, 2014 at 6:04 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Angrboda - August 17, 2014 at 11:29 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by FallentoReason - August 17, 2014 at 11:45 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Angrboda - August 18, 2014 at 8:39 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by robvalue - August 17, 2014 at 4:08 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - August 17, 2014 at 4:22 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by FallentoReason - August 17, 2014 at 8:12 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - August 18, 2014 at 6:33 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by stonedape - August 17, 2014 at 4:36 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Michael - August 17, 2014 at 4:53 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by FallentoReason - August 17, 2014 at 8:51 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by FallentoReason - August 17, 2014 at 9:29 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Lucanus - August 18, 2014 at 3:03 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 18, 2014 at 3:27 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Lucanus - August 18, 2014 at 4:50 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 18, 2014 at 5:01 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Chas - September 1, 2014 at 3:50 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 17, 2014 at 5:03 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Whateverist - August 22, 2014 at 1:42 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 22, 2014 at 4:08 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by ignoramus - August 17, 2014 at 8:02 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by stonedape - August 17, 2014 at 8:51 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 17, 2014 at 8:51 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 17, 2014 at 11:19 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Welsh cake - August 17, 2014 at 3:45 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by ignoramus - August 17, 2014 at 5:49 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 17, 2014 at 7:10 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Lucanus - August 17, 2014 at 6:22 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 17, 2014 at 6:48 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Angrboda - August 17, 2014 at 6:52 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 17, 2014 at 7:09 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 18, 2014 at 1:35 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 17, 2014 at 11:42 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Lucanus - August 18, 2014 at 5:44 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by robvalue - August 18, 2014 at 6:44 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 18, 2014 at 11:29 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by FallentoReason - August 21, 2014 at 4:59 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by FallentoReason - August 20, 2014 at 11:17 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - August 21, 2014 at 5:24 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Angrboda - August 22, 2014 at 12:20 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 21, 2014 at 6:44 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - August 21, 2014 at 8:30 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bladevalant546 - August 21, 2014 at 8:31 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 21, 2014 at 9:05 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Cato - August 22, 2014 at 12:36 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bladevalant546 - August 21, 2014 at 9:25 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 21, 2014 at 11:42 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Thumpalumpacus - August 22, 2014 at 3:12 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Angrboda - August 22, 2014 at 5:26 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 22, 2014 at 6:31 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 22, 2014 at 7:42 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 23, 2014 at 8:30 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 23, 2014 at 9:08 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 24, 2014 at 1:28 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Whateverist - August 22, 2014 at 5:39 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 24, 2014 at 3:36 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 24, 2014 at 10:48 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 24, 2014 at 3:33 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 24, 2014 at 3:50 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 24, 2014 at 7:16 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 24, 2014 at 7:46 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 24, 2014 at 9:37 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 24, 2014 at 10:33 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 24, 2014 at 10:44 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 24, 2014 at 11:39 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 25, 2014 at 9:55 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 25, 2014 at 1:02 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 25, 2014 at 1:39 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 25, 2014 at 9:33 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 25, 2014 at 10:46 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 25, 2014 at 11:47 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 26, 2014 at 12:09 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 26, 2014 at 1:17 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 26, 2014 at 3:05 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 26, 2014 at 1:16 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 26, 2014 at 6:58 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 26, 2014 at 7:57 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 26, 2014 at 10:06 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 26, 2014 at 11:03 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 26, 2014 at 11:57 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 27, 2014 at 12:49 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 27, 2014 at 9:45 am
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 27, 2014 at 10:26 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - August 25, 2014 at 7:19 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Whateverist - August 26, 2014 at 11:25 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 26, 2014 at 7:04 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 26, 2014 at 10:32 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 26, 2014 at 11:09 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - August 26, 2014 at 5:32 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Whateverist - August 26, 2014 at 9:06 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - August 26, 2014 at 11:25 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Whateverist - August 27, 2014 at 1:35 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - August 27, 2014 at 10:05 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Whateverist - August 27, 2014 at 9:14 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 27, 2014 at 9:31 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Whateverist - August 28, 2014 at 12:34 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 26, 2014 at 5:53 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by ManMachine - August 26, 2014 at 7:42 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 27, 2014 at 8:47 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Brian37 - August 27, 2014 at 9:56 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 28, 2014 at 12:55 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 28, 2014 at 9:02 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 28, 2014 at 1:41 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 28, 2014 at 4:13 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 28, 2014 at 6:16 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 28, 2014 at 6:46 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 29, 2014 at 1:47 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 29, 2014 at 2:22 am
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 29, 2014 at 3:23 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - August 28, 2014 at 12:51 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2014 at 8:01 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 29, 2014 at 12:19 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - August 29, 2014 at 1:31 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by tjakey - August 29, 2014 at 10:30 am
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 29, 2014 at 11:53 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 30, 2014 at 8:18 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Whateverist - August 30, 2014 at 9:50 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 30, 2014 at 1:07 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2014 at 1:31 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 30, 2014 at 3:31 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2014 at 4:52 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - August 30, 2014 at 7:45 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2014 at 8:54 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2014 at 9:15 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 30, 2014 at 9:39 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2014 at 10:09 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2014 at 10:31 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 31, 2014 at 1:36 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 31, 2014 at 2:11 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 31, 2014 at 8:44 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - August 31, 2014 at 10:02 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - August 31, 2014 at 6:12 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - August 31, 2014 at 6:32 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - August 31, 2014 at 6:53 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 1, 2014 at 4:50 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 1, 2014 at 6:59 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 1, 2014 at 8:28 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 1, 2014 at 11:31 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 2, 2014 at 12:10 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 2, 2014 at 12:02 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 2, 2014 at 3:18 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 1, 2014 at 7:16 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 1, 2014 at 7:32 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 2, 2014 at 3:56 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 2, 2014 at 7:34 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - September 2, 2014 at 8:06 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 2, 2014 at 9:41 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 3, 2014 at 2:07 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 3, 2014 at 8:34 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 3, 2014 at 9:45 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 3, 2014 at 1:21 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - September 3, 2014 at 5:34 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - September 4, 2014 at 11:36 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 3, 2014 at 7:56 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 3, 2014 at 11:49 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 4, 2014 at 11:41 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - September 4, 2014 at 1:47 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by FatAndFaithless - September 4, 2014 at 1:51 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - September 4, 2014 at 2:01 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Angrboda - September 4, 2014 at 2:15 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 4, 2014 at 6:30 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 4, 2014 at 2:11 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 4, 2014 at 2:37 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 4, 2014 at 6:34 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 4, 2014 at 6:48 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 5, 2014 at 12:02 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 5, 2014 at 7:29 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Chas - September 5, 2014 at 10:17 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 5, 2014 at 10:52 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Chas - September 13, 2014 at 7:29 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 13, 2014 at 8:04 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Chas - September 14, 2014 at 8:24 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 14, 2014 at 9:11 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Chas - September 14, 2014 at 12:27 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 14, 2014 at 6:19 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - September 14, 2014 at 1:59 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 15, 2014 at 4:22 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 13, 2014 at 9:27 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 13, 2014 at 11:40 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 14, 2014 at 1:33 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 14, 2014 at 2:15 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 14, 2014 at 3:01 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 14, 2014 at 4:22 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 14, 2014 at 3:47 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 6, 2014 at 11:01 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 6, 2014 at 5:28 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by pocaracas - September 6, 2014 at 5:46 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 6, 2014 at 11:30 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 7, 2014 at 1:05 pm
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 7, 2014 at 10:47 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 8, 2014 at 12:33 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - September 8, 2014 at 11:16 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 8, 2014 at 7:53 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - September 9, 2014 at 11:40 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - September 8, 2014 at 8:41 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Ben Davis - September 8, 2014 at 9:03 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - September 8, 2014 at 9:24 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Ben Davis - September 8, 2014 at 9:35 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 8, 2014 at 6:45 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - September 8, 2014 at 8:07 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 9, 2014 at 12:35 am
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Mudhammam - September 9, 2014 at 8:17 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by naimless - September 8, 2014 at 11:20 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 9, 2014 at 11:37 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 10, 2014 at 2:40 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - September 10, 2014 at 8:14 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 10, 2014 at 12:14 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 10, 2014 at 6:09 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Neo-Scholastic - September 11, 2014 at 11:46 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Angrboda - September 13, 2014 at 8:06 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by bennyboy - September 11, 2014 at 1:10 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 11, 2014 at 2:36 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 12, 2014 at 1:37 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 13, 2014 at 8:34 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by Surgenator - September 13, 2014 at 12:36 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by dissily mordentroge - September 13, 2014 at 3:48 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 13, 2014 at 11:07 am
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 14, 2014 at 1:37 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by ShaMan - September 14, 2014 at 1:40 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 14, 2014 at 1:52 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by ShaMan - September 14, 2014 at 2:05 pm
RE: On naturalism and consciousness - by The Grand Nudger - September 14, 2014 at 3:44 pm
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