God, Christianity, Control, & Fear

[Caecilian]

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No, no you're both (Caecilian and Paul) missing the point of inclusiveness. It's a counter to the idea that non-believers have that " So if you're not a Christian you're going to hell" schtick. It's the stance of a lot of non-denominational Church movements. We're not saying sure anyone can get into heaven either mind you. It would be completely unreasonable though, for God to punish people who's only exposure to his grace would be from nature (some remote tribe) or who didn't have the mental fascilities to understand the message (mentallly disabled or children). People before Jesus still got into heaven, so Jesus obviously isn't the only way. Since Jesus, and if you know of the message, the only way to God is through Jesus' teachings. For instance you're blind and in a third world country with no access to religion. You still have the laws of God written on your heart (for literalist atheists that means inherit to your nature) and can therefore get into heaven. The main message being that God only requires as much belief and faith as he's revealed in his Grace. It's not our responsibility to have faith, it's God's responsibility to show us reasons to have faith in him. Remember, true faith isn't without notitia, which requires illumination from God. Similarly, someone could live in absolute blind faith their entire life and speak about God and believe without a shadow of a doubt that God exists and pray to baby jesus all the time and not get into heaven. This is described as happening in the Bible, he spoke to Phillip about it and in the parable of the narrow door. I think the Christian movement sees people like muslims, LDS, and Jews as going to "Hell" (wth ever that is), not because they're sinners or they're "god" isn't the same "God" but because they intentionally turn away from Jesus' teachings. Jews before Jesus obviously got into heaven, that's in the Bible to I'm pretty sure. Breakdown from a Christian perspective:
1-For God to know you he's had to reveal himself to you
2-For you to know God you have to either
a) had the message of Jesus brought to you
b) acknowledge revelations God has for you
3- To qualify for eternity both 1 and 2 have to had happened and yoou have to follow that path he's provided for you.
4- You're left outside the door to eternal life if you turn away from either 1 or 2 or the path they lead to.

I hope that explains it a little better.

Hmmm...I've re-read this post several times. I'm still not sure if I entirely understand it. Very interesting, to say the least- I've never come across this type of christian worldview before. Tackattack continues to provide us with food for thought.

Okay, so assuming that I have more or less understood the inclusive position properly:

1. Does everyone have the laws of god inherent in their nature? I'm assuming that they do.
2. Lets say someone is an atheist, without a shred of religious belief, e.g. myself. It seems to me that I still get 'punished' in that whatever path god has laid out for me, I haven't taken it. And I've been exposed to plenty of christianity, but rejected it outright- often with considerable vehemence. So its hellfire for Caecilian. Despite the fact that I've spent most of my adult life working with people with mental health problems, learning difficulties and/or autism, and have very certainly done more good in the world than harm.
3. But heres the weird thing- if I'd never been exposed to christianity at all, I'd apparently still have a shot at heaven. So the very worst thing that a christian can do is try to increase awareness of christianity in countries with other faiths. If the people there don't know about jesus then they can go to heaven. But if they know and reject, then its eternal torment.

Why should god be judging us on the basis of faith? Why should it matter what we believe in? It seems very silly to me. I mean if you were to say that all democrats/ republicans/ independents (delete as appropriate) justly deserved to be tortured for eternity, that would rightly be seen as an over-reaction. And yet what christians say is very similar- 'you don't believe in this, so you'll burn forever'

And whats really appalling is that they seem to think that this is right and just.

Christianity is deeply immoral. That seems clear. Not only crazy, but ethically unacceptable, evil even.

1- Anyone who has the mental capacity for individual thought. Children would be covered because they are individuals and have their own thoughts regardless of their ability to critically self-examine or conceptualize. nimals would be covered if you think that they think. I personally don't care if Fido can think.

2- Correct you are turning away from the message of Jesus, and have the ability to rationally choose between following or fighting. It is possible in theory that you weren't given God's message as he meant to give it to you.. for instance: Preacher comes and tells you about God, now he throws in some lies and misinterpretations to make the offer seem more exciing. That's not God's message so I would say God won't fault you forcalling an arse an arse. If you are being witnessed to, that witnessing terminates as soon as they say something contray to God's nature and plan. Now after the preacher leaves you go to your garden and you're thinking about how pissed ou are that the preacher lied. You wish God would be real, but you're upset and let down. Something catches your eye and there's a particular brilliance and vibrance to your garden that's abnormal. Some butterflies like you've never seen flutter around and you dismiss it and get back to gardening. (A Christian would accept that as a sign if they're used to seeing it) So you're looking down and you swear that a group of beetles was actually forming the shape of a heart or actual words or something. If you dismiss both then yes you've turned against God's plan and are in denial of God, and thus sinning. From a Chistian view it's not about the deeds it's about the denial.

3- No you can be in a place and have no knowledge of Jesus' message and still "go to hell". If you know in your heart it's wrong to kill, then still kill the man, and have no knowledge of Jesus' then you're going against the laws that are written on your heart wich is against God.


I'm trying to show you that 'you don't believe in this, so you'll burn forever' doesn't equal inclusivness or the non-denominational Christian stances I've seen. I'm saying we all have the choice to stand in the rain or go inside. If you deny that it's raining don't bitch if you get wet. We'll never know while we're alive what happens. The afterlife either exists or doesn't, that's where we fundamentally differ. Deepply immoral snd evil .. sigh check the sig. I think you're view is definately skewed. If we can't get past that bias then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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Okay, first of all the issue of messages from god. Afaik, I've never had a message from god, but what if I did? Lets say that I had precisely the experience that you describe in your post.

My first assumption would be that I was experiencing a flashback. In my mis-spent youth I went through a phase of eating acid like candy, so that would be a viable explanation. I haven't had a flashback for many years, but I know what they're like, and how to deal with them.

But what if I kept on seeing weird shit? Flashbacks don't last very long at all, so if things carried on then my next assumption would be that someone had spiked me with an illegal substance- some sort of hallucinogen. Its been many years since I've taken anything like that, but again I'd be able to cope pretty well. I'd try to chill out, do some breathing exercises maybe, get a friend round to keep me company, and wait for whateveritwas to wear off.

But maybe it wouldn't. Maybe I'd still be seeing beetles forming hearts and stuff the next day. Well, that would be worrying. My next assumption would be that I'd gone insane. I'd therefore seek psychiatric help ASAP.

Incidentally, the experience that you describe, in particular this:

Something catches your eye and there's a particular brilliance and vibrance to your garden that's abnormal

Does sound an awful lot like the effects of LSD. 'Particular brilliance and vibrance that's abnormal'- yep, I know what thats like.

As far as the morality of god goes:

Theres this guy



He killed millions of jews, gypsies, gay people, political opponents and others. He also started a world war. He's generally regarded as a very bad man.

Then theres this guy



He killed millions of russians, ukrainians and others in waves of paranoid persecutions. He also deliberated created a major famine. He's generally regarded as being another very bad man.

And then theres this guy



He's certainly responsible for some bloody deeds on the Earth, at least so the bible tells us. But all of this pales in comparison to the afterlife. He's condemned billions of people to eternal torment, a fate that is vastly worse than simply killing them.

And yet the christians not only worship the third guy, whose crimes appear to be far worse than the other two. They actually have the nerve to claim that he is benevolent.

Its a sick, twisted, evil religion.